SCHIAVO INTERVENTION ENDS

The Hill ^ | 3/23/05

[Smartaleck]

"Her testimony not mentioned in the "news". here affidavit not read."

Dan Rather believes her though........I'm sure.

[Smartaleck]

"that any judge could review this case "from the beginning" in just a few hours"

If your rearend were going to be hung out in front of the entire world do honestly think you'd only spend a couple of hours on this?

I'll guarantee the SC has every aide in the building pouring over every comma, crossed t and period right now even though they may not even hear the case.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Social conservatives are wrong if they believe that prolonging the misery of TS is a GOOD thing. This is the same kind of sentimentality and irrationality that I expect from the Leftists. This woman is without consciousness and reduced to little more than a physiological process. It isn't life as anyone I know would want to live.

[justshutupandtakeit]

I certainly have not "pro-death" view you are confusing that with an Anti-pretend-this-is-life view. There is a huge difference.

In general I am against the majority of the Court's rulings when they are just concocted out of thin air. That is not what has happened here where every ruling has had clear precedence for it. It is no accident that EVERY judge from every political persuasion has come to the same conclusion for years now on this case.

There is simply NO way society can spend millions per year per patient maintained this semblence of life. It is impossible no matter what YOU or I might desire.

[Smartaleck]

"When do the rest of us get that kind of clout?"

Congress, taking care of America's health-care one person at a time.

John Stewart show.

[justshutupandtakeit]

That's some good delusional thinking there boy. Real good.

[Warlord]

"This woman is without consciousness and reduced to little more than a physiological process. It isn't life as anyone I know would want to live."

Social conservatives would do well to disassociate politically from those who would deem brain damaged human beings mere "physiological process[es]."

As for irrationality, you argue that she has is "without consciousness" yet is in "misery." Moreover, it doesn't follow that one should be killed because the life is not something that you would want to live. The barbarism you advocate is beyond anything I would expect from Leftists.

Consider taking a break from abstractions and infusing a measure of sentimentality into your thinking.

[ordinaryguy]

Please see page 17.

"Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state."

The family is not qualified to make a mdical judgement as to whether or not Terri is in a PVS. They are not neurologists, and have not received specialized training, such as would be found in a medical school, which would allow them to make a diagnosis.

It sounds to me as though they testified that Terri had a PVS diagnosis. Do you disagree with any of these statements?

But please stop hiding behind the PVS label. If a man capable of operating a wheelchair, kissing his mother's hand, and operating a pegboard on instruction from a therapist is PVS, then PVS is not justifiable grounds for murder.

[justshutupandtakeit]

You think Bush is a "general incompetent" so what does that make you for believing that an Executive Order affects anything other than the federal executive branch of government?

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

It is no accident that EVERY judge from every political persuasion has come to the same conclusion for years now on this case.

THAT CANARD. I have been on this 16 hours a day but I guess everybody can't do that.

Terri's case has been evaluated by ONE judge, George Greer. All of the other judges considered only appeals. Appeals courts at the state and federal levels are permitted only to consider whether the trial court judge followed proper procedure and interpretation of the law. No appeals court in the U.S. is allowed to question any finding of fact. If the trial court found that Terri was PVS, then every appeals court is required to accept that. The federal court was supposed to hold a new trial under the new law. But the tool in the federal district court refused to do that. That leaves the 11th Circuit and SCOTUS with virtually no record whatever to work with.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

You think Bush is a "general incompetent" so what does that make you for believing that an Executive Order affects anything other than the federal executive branch of government?

Exactly right. That includes federal marshalls and army doctors who can move in at any time. And Jeb has the same power in Florida.

A lot of FReepers are getting an education on what separation of powers REALLY means instead of the junk they learned in school.

[justshutupandtakeit]

We are not talking about merely "brain-DAMAGED" but more like brain destroyed. Big difference.

Her "misery" does not come from physical pain but from being in a spiritual limbo.

This situation is one that many find themselves in every day in our country. When my wife was dying and without any chance my daily prayer was that God would end her suffering.

The most disturbing thing about this case is the incredible hatred unleashed by those trying to keep Terri from ending her life in a peaceful manner and the lies they resort to to paint MS as a monster. And the knee-jerk response of the GOP to them. That protends disaster.

This has been blown totally out of proportion ala the Peterson Trial, the Jackson Trial and the Kobe trial while many vastly more important things just sit. It is consuming medical resources, legal resources without ANY positive result unless you are a RAT just waiting to go on the attack over the GOP absurdity. They are going to have a Field day.

[justshutupandtakeit]

The facts are even MORE against the Inlaws. That will in no way help their argument.

[justshutupandtakeit]

That is the ONLY positive aspect of this trainwreck and even then it is a stretch.

However, you seem to believe that these powers allow the President or Governor to intervene at will in cases where they have NO authority to do so. They will use those powers in order to SUPPORT a court ruling NOT to thwart one.

[bondserv]

Libertarians are very insistent on fiscal freedom, but they do not see that it must be a prerequisite to social freedom. These two areas of freedom are inextricably linked. Fiscal servitude makes oppressors out of the socially irresponsible. The two should be required to be in equal proportions. If you want the freedom to be a dirtbag then accept the responsibility of the consequences yourself. The worst outcome is social anarchy and fiscal servitude, but the libertarian argument often leads exactly there because they fail to see just how important the link is.

Well said!

[Smartaleck]

Another observation and comment about the PVS which seems to come up a lot.

At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible.

For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schlinder tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli.

Dr. Hammesfahr (Schindler Dr.)testified that he felt that he was able to get Terry Schiavo to reproduce repeatedly to his commands. However, by the court's count, he gave 105 commands to Terry Schiavo and, at his direction, Mrs. Schindler gave an additional 6 commands. Again, by the court's count, he asked her 61 questions and Mrs. Schindler, at his direction, asked her an additional 11 questions. The court saw few actions that could be considered responsive to either those commands or those questions. The videographer focused on her hands when Dr. Hammesfahr was asking her to squeeze.

While Dr. Hammesfahr testified that she squeezed his finger on command, the video would not appear to support that and his reaction on the video likewise would not
appear to support that testimony.

The record is replete with the doctors disagreeing over what the videotapes appeared to portray. For instance, was it a visual orienting reflex or was it tracking. Was it a cognitive focus of the eyes or was it a startle response looking to the sound. Perhaps the most compelling testimony was that of Dr. Bambakidis who explained to the court the agony and soul-searching which he underwent to arrive at his opinion that Terry Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. He concluded that all the data as a whole supports permanent vegetative state. While the others may have gone through such an analysis, their testimony does not indicate that.

Another issue involved the piano music played via cassette tape in her room during Dr. Hammesfahr examination. Dr. Maxfield (Schindler Dr.) testified she related to it and "tried to sing". However, this music was played markedly louder than any other music or voice commands of the doctors. It was probably louder than the handclasp or dropped objects that always seemed to produce a startle reflex. Dr. Greer testified that the length of the reflex depends on the direction of the stimulation.

Dr. Maxfield also felt that '02 CT Scan showed improvement in the quality of the remaining brain matter and that one reason Terry Schiavo was not in a persistent vegetative state was that she could swallow her own saliva and breathe on her own.

These views were not supported by any of the other doctors and Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford strongly disagreed with his '02 CT Scan opinion. Dr. Cranford further testified that saliva handling is from the brain stem, a reflex.

Viewing all of the evidence as a whole, and acknowledging that medicine is not a precise science, the court finds that the credible evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that Terry Schiavo remains in a persistent vegetative state. Even Dr. Maxfield acknowledges that vegetative patients can track on occasion and that smiling can be a reflex.

From a court document trialctorder11-02.txt may also be pdf too.

Yes it's long but it's not edited to show a biasing view and, I believe, shows the fairness of Greer to consider all evidence and testimony. :-)

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Maybe. Maybe not. But the Governor or the President acting will break the Judicial Oligarchy into little pieces. Both have hinted in the last two hours they will. It only remains for SCOTUS to act or fail to act. SCOTUS can save SOME of its authority by reversing and ordering feeding. They have a couple hours. But if they call the bluff, they risk being destroyed.

[Treasa]

Hello Smartaleck. :)
I understand that the same drivel is being regurgitated thru the courts but it's seems they've neglected other evidence. I heard Sean Hannity say the ORIGINAL crime report was never entered in as well as many other details such as sworn testimony from Nurses etc..
If this were a death penalty case the court would not only review part of the evidence, right? They only looked this over for 45 mins yesterday, am I right?
Please don't get me wrong, I get your point and I know we have the best legal system in the world, and I'm not knocking it, but mistakes happen, we need to make certain all the facts are in.

[justshutupandtakeit]

This is no example of a "Judicial Oligarchy" but rather an example of WHY the Founders wanted Judicial Independence from the whims of the Mob.