America’s Has-Been Economy

Chronicles ^ | Friday, March 18, 2005 | Paul Craig Roberts

[SwankyC]

I dont know, ask them. Go look at the content list on a car. My last three new cars were of about 85% foreign content.

[SwankyC]

It doesnt seem to want to allow me to reply to lrudeboy too.

I stoped by the auto strip mall today for lunch. I did a quick flyby of a few models to see what the US content is. I only noted the models where it would skew an overall picture of US made parts.

Dodge - 65-75% of US content
Volvo - 1.5% US Content
Nissan 0 - 65% The 65% was 1 model only
Honda 0(several models) - 90%(Accord only)
Chevy 55 - 75%
Toyota 0(4 models %5 and under) - 90%(minivan only)

I dont know where you got your information but it just doesnt match what's in the lot. You may stop being high and mighty at any time.

[sitetest]

Dear SwankyC,

Well, I don't have time to research this question thoroughly, but here's a little more of what I found out about Honda, as an example.

Here's a link to a page on Honda's website:

http://hondanews.com/CatID1005?mid=2004080244878&mime=asc

The link says that over 75% of Hondas sold in the US are built in North America. I don't know the average content of those models, I only know that the Accord is in the mid-90s, percentage-wise.

This page also states that 1.4 million Hondas are built in North America, which is about equal to the number of Hondas sold in the US in 2004. However, Honda actually EXPORTS some Hondas from North America to other countries.

In 2003, here were some of the models that Honda builds in North America:

- Accord
- Civic
- Acura TL
- Acura CL
- Acura EL
- Acura MDX
- Element
- Odyssey
- Pilot

About 1.25 million Hondas were built in North America in 2003, and of that number, about 850,000 were built in US assembly lines, or about 68% of all North American production.

Here's a link:

http://hondanews.com/catID1021?mid=2001040437274&mime=asc

Honda also says it purchased $10 billion of parts from North American suppliers in fiscal 2004. That works out to about $7000 per car of North American parts.

So, I don't know what to tell you about what you saw at the auto strip mall, but it appears that Honda, at least, builds a whole bunch of cars in North America.


sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear SwankyC,

A little googling reveals that Toyota builds at least some of these models in North America:

- Camry
- Avalon
- Camry Solara
- Corolla
- Matrix
- Sequoia
- Sienna
- Tacoma
- Tundra
- RX 330

For Toyotas built in North America, Toyota uses greater than 95% North American steel, and $22 billion North American-supplied parts.

Here's a link:

http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/index.html

In 2004, Toyota made about 1.4 million vehicles in North America, while selling about 2.3 million vehicles in North America.

Links:

http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/numbers/factsfigures04/na_production_growth.html

http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/numbers/factsfigures04/na_sales.html

Again, I don't know what you saw at the mall, but it appears that Toyota builds a lotta cars in North America, too.


sitetest

[FreedomPoster]

Nicely done.

[traumer]

"What type of knowledge? What field would you recommend to the students? "

Master of LIBRARIAN SCIENCE !

(...not kidding - just heard on radio)

[phil_will1]

"The scale is ten times bigger. If China follows the Japanese example then her economy will be five times larger that USA (if USA keeps the ground)."

Although we disagree about the solution, there can be no doubt that China is a huge threat. They have a population of 1.5 billion and their economy is growing at twice the rate that ours is, and has been doing so for some time. India has 1 billion paeople and they sned 6 students to a university for every one China sends.

We are moving into a different economic environment than any we have known before. As Newt said recently, we haven't competed with economies that can match our scale before, but we will very soon. Those who don't take this seriously aren't paying attention.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Again, I don't know what you saw at the mall,

With most of these protectionists, facts come in a distant second to "I saw at the mall" or "Some guy told me".

[SwankyC]

Dear sitetest, <--- isnt that obnoxious!

I dont care what you've googled. Toyota absolutely does make some of their vehicles here, like I said, 90% of the minivan is made in America, but you are trying to make it sound like most of their vehicles are made here and that's just a flat out lie. Again, like I said a quick browse of three other models revealed 0 - 5% manufacture in America. I cant help you beyond that. I dont have a "reality pill" for you to take. Seek help.

with lots of love and affection, swankyc

[sitetest]

Dear SwankyC,

Sorry you find my standard salutation obnoxious.

But that's how I usually begin my posts to nearly everyone, because, to me, posts are like casual, friendly letters. I begin all my casual correspondence with "Dear ____," as well as some of my more formal business correspondence.

"...but you are trying to make it sound like most of their vehicles are made here and that's just a flat out lie."

Nope. I'm not "trying to make it sound like most of their vehicles are made here."

I'm just posting information provided by Honda and Toyota directly. If the information is that they DO actually make most of the vehicles that are sold in the US here in North America, then your argument is with the information.

Don't shoot the messenger. Frankly, until I looked up the information myself, I didn't realize that these companies built so many cars in North America.

I don't know what you saw at the mall, but in terms of aggregate data, both companies make a lot of cars in North America, and both companies use a lot of parts made in North America.

"Again, like I said a quick browse of three other models revealed 0 - 5% manufacture in America."

Well, what can I tellya? Honda made 1.4 million cars in North America last year. I don't know precisely what percentage of cars sold by Honda in the US were manufactured in North America, but it appears to be more than half. Domestic content for cars actually manufactured in North America is high.

Toyota manufactures somewhere around 3 cars in North America for every 5 they sell in the US. They make over 1.4 million, and sell over 2.3 million. I don't know if they export any out of North America, like Honda does.

I'll also note that Toyota actually employs 37,000 people in North America directly. GM had about 50,000 folks employed in North America in 2000, and I understand that GM has had to cut further.

Domestic content for those Toyotas appears to be pretty high, apparently around $15,000 per car manufactured in North America.

"Again, like I said a quick browse of three other models revealed 0 - 5% manufacture in America."

Well, we call that an anecdote. And at this point, it is an anecdote unsupported by any evidence, other than your own testimony. From your anecdote, we have no idea how representative your sample is. We do know that you're kind of hostile and nasty, and that doesn't really enhance your credibility.

But even if we fully credit your story, and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, your anecdote borders on sheer meaninglessness. We have no idea as to the sales mix of the models you purport to have looked at. We have no idea whether you missed a whole slew of models that ARE made here. Or perhaps, you looked at models where some come from North America, and some of the same model come from Japan or elsewhere, and the particular cars you saw were not from North American facilities.

What one is to make of your story is a mystery. It has no context, no particular attachment to the larger reality.

On the other hand, I've cited the actual official websites of Honda and Toyota. Perhaps they're lying about nearly three million vehicles built by their two companies in 2004. Perhaps you might want to research that and offer some actual proof, other than your own anecdotal assertions.

"I cant help you beyond that. I dont have a 'reality pill' for you to take. Seek help."

* chuckle *

I think this is what is meant by "projection."


sitetest

[Toddsterpatriot]

I think this is what is meant by "projection."

Ouch. That'll leave a mark!!

[sitetest]

Dear Toddsterpatriot,

"Ouch. That'll leave a mark!!"

It really wasn't meant to leave a mark. Perhaps then it would have been better left unsaid.

However, when one asserts one's ever-so-slight anecdote against the published data of large, international, reputable corporations, assertions that others are having a hard time with reality ring especially hollow.


sitetest

[Toddsterpatriot]

However, when one asserts one's ever-so-slight anecdote against the published data of large, international, reputable corporations, assertions that others are having a hard time with reality ring especially hollow.

You're preaching to the choir brother. I've had people say that WalMart carries no American products. Zero.

When I showed them that WalMart only bought 7.55% of their goods from China, the tap dancing was something to see. Along the lines of "Well, I know what I saw, damn the truth"

[A. Pole]

So now trade surplus or deficit is the indicator of a successful or failed economy?

I assume you you wanted to ask if the "trade surplus or deficit AND UNEMPLOYMENT is the indicator"? Because I gave you both. You must have ommitted it by a mistake.

Now, let us make a mental experiment. Imagine that Japan would get the half of continent with huge resources, good climate etc ... would it have a good effect on the economy? And then imagine that Americans lost ther land and were forced to live on overcrowded, mountainous without any resources. I believe that it would crippleAmerican economy very severly.

How would than Japanes and American economies would compare? My point is that taking into account what Japan was given by fortune, Japane is doing much much better and so the Japanese economical policy is second to none.

[Paul Ross]

The market is not doing "its job" it is merely responding to forces that the Chinese are manipulating. You are the ones not doing "your job". You are asleep at the switch, and can't even read the article.

[Paul Ross]

Meanwhile, the Grand Old Party has passed a bankruptcy "reform" that is certain to turn unemployed Americans living on debt and beset with unpayable medical bills into the indentured servants of credit card companies. The steely-faced Bush administration is making certain that Americans will experience to the full their country’s fall.

I don't believe they would intend to do this to the country...but they can clearly be blindered to it. Scales have been allowed to form over their eyes, and their hearts hardened. I saw where the U.S. trustee's office claimed only 5% of bankruptcies had medical debt. A casual survey of the schedules of actual filings show it is in fact more like 30-to-50% as claimed by Bankruptcy practitioners. Sickening.

[Paul Ross]

There will be new industries and new jobs. The economy will adjust, as it always has in the past.

Nope. We are in a beggar-thy-neighbor competition of societies. The Iron Law of Wages is being allowed to operate, and the destruction of the U.S. middle class is underway. Anything new never gets made in the U.S., it goes straight to China for manufacturing. We went from one-income bread-winners, to two income families...with many having to work multiple jobs. This is progress?

[SwankyC]

projection? Absolutely. Im trying to project reality to you and it just isnt taking. You and ol' "90% of Walmart's good are made in America" ToddsterPatriot dont like to accept fact.

Well, we call that an anecdote.

You call it an anecdote, I'll call it reality.

actually make most of the vehicles that are sold in the US here in North America,

I dont deny they are making some of the vehicle here. Civics and accords being two but you're still trying to say they are making all of their vehicles here and it just isnt true. So why dont you go look at reality.

your anecdote borders on sheer meaninglessness

Im sorry that you find reality meaningless. Like I said, seek help. That's all I got, you're wrong and im not gonna argue with you like a child.

[SwankyC]

It's interesting you're still reliving that argument todd. All I can say is wow. You arent married ar you?

[Toddsterpatriot]

I assume you you wanted to ask if the "trade surplus or deficit AND UNEMPLOYMENT is the indicator"? Because I gave you both. You must have ommitted it by a mistake.

Japanese Unemployment rate:
5.3% (2003)

Japan

In February, both the number of unemployed persons, 8.0 million, and the unemployment rate, 5.4 percent, returned to their December levels after dipping in January

United States

Are you sure the 0.1% difference means their central planning is working?

My point is that taking into account what Japan was given by fortune, Japane is doing much much better and so the Japanese economical policy is second to none.

So, you're going to ignore economic performance since 1989? Ignore government debt, which in Japan is about 2.5 times larger than ours.

If you want a thought experiment, look at Hong Kong. They had much less than Japan was given. And yet without any central planning, their purchasing power parity - $28,800 (2003 est.) ,according to the CIA World Factbook is higher than Japan's, purchasing power parity - $28,200 (2003 est.)