America’s Has-Been Economy

Chronicles ^ | Friday, March 18, 2005 | Paul Craig Roberts

[A. Pole]

Yeah, how well has that worked for Japan since 1989?

Why SINCE 1989? What about BEFORE 1989? Japan transformed from the Third World country into the leading economical power. Most of the Third World countries would gladly had Japanese post 1989 problems (BTW, Japan is not doing so bad even after 1989 and USA is getting deeper into the debt with Japan).

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why SINCE 1989?

You said:
Pragmatic (not ideological) national policy combining market and well calibrated government intervention usually worked very well.

So, how well has it worked in Japan since 1989? Or would that ruin your point that government intervention usually works?

[Toddsterpatriot]

Japan transformed from the Third World country into the leading economical power.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the United States is the leading economic power.

[A. Pole]

So, how well has it worked in Japan since 1989?

Since 1989 it worked quite well as it prevented Indonesia or Weimar republic style collapse. BEFORE 1989 it worked EXTREMELY well as it made Japan a prosperous industrialised country.

But you would like to see Japan to be like Indonesia without the natural resources. It must be because you are not Japanese.

Or would that ruin your point that government intervention usually works?

Compare Indonesia with Malaysia at the time of Asian crisis - the first followed the free market Western advice the second decided to use state intervention. Compare Russia of 1990's which following the advice of Chicago/Harvard boys transfered the national wealth into hands of mafia with China which used state planning in national interest.

[A. Pole]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the United States is the leading economic power.

OK, so Japan is the second leading economic power. For a small island with little resources and much smaller population than USA it is quite an achievement.

[hedgetrimmer]

The Free Trade Agreement of the Americas is ...the pillar, the foundation of the grand project of hemispheric integration contained in the Summit vision

You argue for free trade all the time. Hemispheric integration is social revolution.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Since 1989 it worked quite well as it prevented Indonesia or Weimar republic style collapse. BEFORE 1989 it worked EXTREMELY well as it made Japan a prosperous industrialised country.

Wow, not collapsing is a reason for government central planning? Setting a low bar. We didn't collapse either, what do you credit that to?

Compare Russia of 1990's which following the advice of Chicago/Harvard boys transfered the national wealth into hands of mafia with China which used state planning in national interest.

The Chicago/Harvard boys advised Russia to transfer the national wealth into the hands of the mafia? I must have missed that white paper. You wouldn't have a link to it, would you?

You said that planning worked well. So, how much has the Japanese economy grown annually since 1989? They've been planning their economy since at least the end of WWII. They must be getting better at it, right? Practice makes perfect?

Compare Indonesia with Malaysia at the time of Asian crisis

Why not compare the US and Japan? Our growth since 1989 vs their growth. How about since 2000? Why not 1980? You seem to want more planning for the US, show me that planning worked better than not planning.

[Toddsterpatriot]

You argue for free trade all the time. Hemispheric integration is social revolution.

I'll bet the OAS ordered you to say that! LOL!!

[Willie Green]

Then why do you need to protect them from less productive producers?

Because the federal government imposes regulatory burdens on the steel and mining industries (OSHA, EPA, etc.) that are not observed offshore.

People coming together to voluntarily trade goods and services.

There is nothing "voluntary" about it whatsoever.
The lopsided economics of international trade are dictated by corrupt bureacrats who negotiate misnamed "free" trade agreements.

"We are infinitely better off without treaties of commerce with any nation."

--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1815.

[hedgetrimmer]

I'll bet the OAS ordered you to say that! LOL!!

Maybe you should define the OAS for other readers, since you brought it up on this thread.

[Toddsterpatriot]

There is nothing "voluntary" about it whatsoever. The lopsided economics of international trade are dictated by corrupt bureacrats who negotiate misnamed "free" trade agreements

Nothing voluntary about a company wanting to voluntarily buy steel from South Korea. Once again, not understanding your Willie logic.

So, you can't, or won't, explain why expensive steel is good for America?

[investigateworld]

I've seen all the number crunching and 'international trade models', but my Irish ancestry keeps reminding me of the 1840s back in the old sod.
There was no reason on God's Green Earth for the potato crop failure to have caused all those deaths in that era.
But the free market decided the horses pulling cabs in London were more useful than the Irish farmers, hence the grain went to them.
I recognize that this is an extreme example, but human nature is still the same.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Maybe you should define the OAS for other readers, since you brought it up on this thread.

According to hedgetrimmer, the OAS is the supranational body to govern the Western Hemisphere, as designated by the Free Trade of the Americas Agreement.

So, when you want to fight that parking ticket, dispute that property tax increase or lobby your elected representative, don't bother, the OAS has power over the entire Western Hemisphere.

[hedgetrimmer]

For anyone wondering why Toddsterpatriot thinks this is funny, and how "free trade" is creating and will create social upheaval in this country, here is the full quote and a link.

First of all, let us recognize that the general vision and strategic orientations of the Summit of the Americas provide nothing less than the comprehensive framework and organizing principles for the social, economic and political relations among the community of nations of the hemisphere in the XXI century.

The FTAA is not just one more initiative among the 23 initiatives launched in the Summit of the Americas. It is the pillar, the foundation of the grand project of hemispheric integration contained in the Summit vision.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1364319/posts?page=171#171

[Toddsterpatriot]

But the free market decided the horses pulling cabs in London were more useful than the Irish farmers, hence the grain went to them.

I'm not Irish, so I don't know the whole story, but didn't the British force the sale of the grain to England? Not much free market about it.

[Willie Green]

So, you can't, or won't, explain why expensive steel is good for America?

I've explained that it is the federal regulatory bureaucracy that places that economic burden on our domestic industries.

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge that.

[hedgetrimmer]

Well you haven't even explained the OAS acronym yet for those who don't know. Can't you tell us in your own words?

[x]

It's not so much the loss of the factory jobs themselves that people object to, as the loss of the other jobs related to them. The idea that we could continue to design the machinery and software used in production, once the factories moved elsewhere is proving to be an illusion. The know-how and the pioneering can-do spirit follow the centers of production, or at least that's the fear. The idea that we could still be the headquarters country after outsourcing industry, looks overconfident. Of course, we can't seal off our borders and stay on top of the heap, but people naturally fear the unknown, and there's much in deindustrialization to make people understandably nervous.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I've explained that it is the federal regulatory bureaucracy that places that economic burden on our domestic industries.

You're the one who refuses to acknowledge that.

I agree that the feds place a burden on domestic industry. So does a unionized workforce. So, why is it good for America to make steel consumers pay $150/ton for American steel if they could buy Korean steel for $120/ton?

We creating a lot of steel worker jobs by doing that? How many steel jobs are there now? 10 million? 20 million?