Law and Borders

The Weekly Standard ^ | 2/28/2005 | Tamar Jacoby

[Lead Moderator]

Thank you.

[Cultural Jihad]

Luke 16

[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazaro, the 3rd World Unwanted, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazaro, the 3rd World Unwanted in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazaro, the 3rd World Unwanted, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazaro, the 3rd World Unwanted evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And with that I leave you in the hands of God, Who is both merciful and just.

[TheForceOfOne]

Poobah, you don't have to fire a shot to prove you will do it. The invasion by foreigners whether they're Mexicans or others who travel through Mexico can be stopped, going into Mexico to stop them is not the answer. Great White Fleet that Theodore Roosevelt sent to tour the world in 1907 was a show of force as a deterrent and to make a point.

[Cultural Jihad]

Ping us when you get your bathtub fleet in the Gulf of Mexico.

[TheForceOfOne]

Whatever, not worth a real response.

[Cultural Jihad]

Whatever, not worth a real response.

Such as your response to a supposed invasion and war?

[TheForceOfOne]

When did I say invade Mexico? do you know?

War on the other hand is a totally different story.

[Poohbah]

Poobah, you don't have to fire a shot to prove you will do it.

According to you, we're at war. Why do you demand that we not fight?

The invasion by foreigners whether they're Mexicans or others who travel through Mexico can be stopped, going into Mexico to stop them is not the answer.

You're saying that Mexico is invading the United States, which is an act of war against the United States by Mexico. A properly Clausewitzian path would involve the invasion and conquest of Mexico, followed by refashioning Mexico into something that we deem more congruent with our national interest.

Great White Fleet that Theodore Roosevelt sent to tour the world in 1907 was a show of force as a deterrent and to make a point.

You're saying that we are at war now, and that said war is well underway. But then you speak of deterrence.

Deterrence is a pre-war issue. Once the war has started, deterrence has failed.

You demand that we not fight a war, even as you claim that we are under invasion. Your positions are mutually contradictory.

[Poohbah]

When did I say invade Mexico?

That's the problem: you refuse to support such a path, even as your rhetoric makes it mandatory.

Defense is the weaker form of war; without taking the offensive, it is impossible to win, and defeat is inevitable if one deliberately avoids seeking victory.

[TheForceOfOne]

Poobah, You fail to see my points, you fail to see the strategy I point out, you fail to see the difference between a hot and a cold war. I still like debating you and in time we could find a mutual ground of understanding. If you spank a puppy when it is young for doing something you want the puppy not to do and remember such as leaving the yard, is it not possible the puppy learns from the correction and for the remainder of his life no further spankings are required but of the fear of force against him for violating what he knows it wrong?

[Just another Joe]

But it doesn't matter, Joe.
it's called "Race-baiting."

I know but someone has to stand their ground and be able to prove that they are in the wrong for doing it.

[Poohbah]

Poobah, You fail to see my points, you fail to see the strategy I point out, you fail to see the difference between a hot and a cold war.

Invasions are, by their nature, hot wars. Are you still calling this an invasion? If so, then you are committed to fighting and winning a war against Mexico. Which, in turns, demands that America invade Mexico and conquer it. War has its own rules. If you are saying this is war, you must adhere to those rules.

I still like debating you and in time we could find a mutual ground of understanding.

Sure we can. All you have to do is understand a few things:

• Remember that words mean things
• Understand that you understand about as much about war as those bilious bastards at the Saturday Evening Post knew about fornicating
• Understand that when you say "invasion," you are saying that we are in a hot war
• Understand that offense wins wars, not defense
• Understand that there is no substitute for victory

That's it. Pretty simple.

If you spank a puppy when it is young for doing something you want the puppy not to do and remember such as leaving the yard, is it not possible the puppy learns from the correction and for the remainder of his life no further spankings are required but of the fear of force against him for violating what he knows it wrong?

We are dealing with what you call an "invasion," not a f***ing puppy.

Either get a clue, or get a private room with your violence-espousing buddy "TheBrotherhood" and have at it.

[jackbenimble]

Your population is slightly under 500,000, with an estimated 2,500 illegal aliens living there, or roughly one half of one percent of your total population are illegal aliens.

If you consider the ten million illegal aliens residing in the U.S. today, and with an estimated total population of 281,422,000, Wyoming's population of illegal aliens is actually higher as a percentage of the population, than the rest of the US.

10 million out of 281 million would be pretty close to 3.5% and I don't understand how you think with 0.5% (half a percent), Wyoming has a higher percentage. In fact, the national average is six times higher than Wyoming's. Check your math! And that is before you consider the fact that Bears Stearns says we likely have closer to 20 million illegals. The census bureau has a long history of underestimating these things so there is no reason to trust them over a private organization with a fiduciary responsibility to investors.

Here's a clue...they're not all Mexicans.

I never said they were. I am well aware that about 40% of them are from elsewhere besides Mexico. And I have nothing against Mexicans or Hispanics of any sort. My mother was born in Cuba so I am half Hispanic. My problem is with illegal aliens and I don't care about their race, creed or color.

But this thread is largely about securing our borders and I'm sure you know what country lies South of our southern border. Of the million plus illegals apprehended on the southern border last year, about 65,000 of them were OTMs (other than Mexicans). The rest were Mexicans.

[TheForceOfOne]

Temper temper the mod's are watching Poobah! lol

Poobah, I never said to invade anyone, show me any post I made where I suggested we invade Mexico.

And you can insult me until the cows come home or the mod's correct you and I wouldn't care, insults are for children and those with bad tempers. I enjoy the debate, lets not stoop to insults.

[investigateworld]

RE: immigrants more traditional? Ha, tell that one to Bob Dornan. He made mistakes, but he was voted out and replaced by a pro-abortionist female.

[Cultural Jihad]

I know but someone has to stand their ground and be able to prove that they are in the wrong for doing it.

Care to comment on this post #272?

[Poohbah]

You're saying it's an "invasion." OK, fine. That means we're at war.

Why do you refuse to fight the war you claim we're in?

[F16Fighter]

"I'm against open borders, illegal immigration, etc....but what do we do, become a police state?"

The problem is exasperated by a government unwilling to enforce the law until near anarchal proportions -- only THEN do we approach the semblance of a "police state."

"Bush is at least trying."

That's the biggest joke going. NO, he's not -- even most Republicans recognize that fact.

He hasn't come up with a plan yet, has given NO priority, allotted minimal resources, and while virtually ignored the entire crisis since 9/11.

Bluntly put, President Dubya Bush has been a disgrace on the issue of border security and illegal immigration.

[TheForceOfOne]

The problem is you think war means to conquer you enemy and to do so means to take their land and/or slay the army and citizens and that can be true in a hot war. A war by its definition is all acts of war short of violence. Displaying a willingness to use violence as a deterrent against those who violate our borders such as citizens of Mexico for example or even the soldiers can be considered war. The ability to stop someone from committing a crime by show of force is done every day by police officers who patrol our streets, they don't run around shoot their guns at everyone but they do carry them and will use them if necessary and the criminals know this. They may still commit crimes but not within the grasp of the law officers. The border patrol doesn't work because the Mexicans know they will not shoot and sometimes they will not even stop them. There is a whole in the fence around San Diego that we are not allowed to patch for some odd reason and the Mexicans crawl through it by the thousands. As a child I know there were a lot of things I might have done to get myself in trouble and I would have done so if I didn't fear facing the wrath of my parents, it kept me clean for the most part and I am better for it today.

[F16Fighter]

"Why do you refuse to fight the war you claim we're in?"

Some of us are rather busy supporting families and maintaining America's societal tasks.

But isn't there a method to the madness of paying taxes, electing governmental officials, and fielding law enforcement, border patrol agents, and armed forces?