Posted on 02/21/2005 2:09:20 PM PST by Bob J
Your statement implies that only conventional weapons are at our disposal.
2. The dems will eat us alive once all the body bags start coming home, making the world safe for Hillary, Kennedy and whatever future commies are hurled from our wonderful system of higher education.
See my previous response. One key-turn on a submarine can do a lot.
3. There are tens, maybe hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims who are disgusted by what is being done to their religion but stay silent or they and their families get the midnight garrot from moles planted throughout the world (note- see NJ) .
Yeah. I see them in those weekly street protests, shouting to the heavens.
4. The only way we can win this war against Muslim extremism is to encourage, support and align ourselves with these moderate Muslim elements and use them as front line of defense and offense against the jihadists.
I disagree. We can win this war by destroying our enemies, their families, their ideological supporters.
5. Medieval Islam can be pulled into the 21st century.
I disagree. Islam had a several-centuries head start on the Western world. It languishes in a state of violence and squalor. If you think a towel-head with a website and a penchant for press releases will change the world, you're a dhimi waiting to be subjugated. Do you, by any chance, have any basis in fact for your statement? You certainly can't use history. Sounds like an emotion with no factual basis to me.
6. Bush has made the right moves by helping facilitate modern democracies in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These can not only be used as examples but also sources of support in the coming war with the most extreme of Islamic/Wahhabists elements.
Just like the Saudis supported us this time around, after we saved them and their oil fields 15 years ago. Oh, that's right. They didn't.
7. All people thirst for democracy.
Then why have there been no Muslim democracies until we forced them on two countries just now? That's a simple enough question for a smart guy like you.
8. All people will defend those democracies if they believe they have at least a 25% chance of doing so. American support is worth 20%.
Once again, you're stating an opinion with no basis in fact. Your statement is unsupportable.
9. Defeatists are dangerous to the human spirit. The sap our energy and our will and must be opposed at every turn.
Muslims are dangerous to mankind.
1.) Unproven until we try it.
2.) Pure conjecture.
3.) You have no idea how many there are, and have no statistics to back up your assertion. There may be 400 million and there may be none.
4.) Also pure conjecture. We could win the war against radical islam if we used nukes, nerve gas, and biological weapons. It wouldn't be pretty, but we have the weapons to do it. All we lack is the political will.
5.) Also pure conjecture. How can we pull (your word) a billion people anywhere? What if they don't want to be pulled?
6. It remains to be seen if Bush has made the right decisions. We won't know that for at least a generation. He may be correct, or he may be making an error which could prove fatal to Western Civilization. I hope you're correct, but at this point there's no way to prove that.
7.) Demonstrably false. The Imperial Japanese weren't 'thirsting' for democracy. Osama Bin Laden isn't 'thirsting' for democracy. Neither is Zarqawi.
8.) Pure conjecture on your part. You have absolutely no proof that 25% is some kind of magic number.
In some cases, American support creates the exact opposite of the intended effect. They sure didn't seem to want American Style Democracy in Somalia did they?
9.) Here's the only thing you've said that's even partially correct. Defeatism as an attitude is indeed dangerous. What's equally dangerous is refusing to see your enemies as they really are. The only reason Japan is a nominally Democratic nation today is because we destroyed their military machine, wiped out their soldiers without mercy, and ultimately used not one but two nuclear weapons on them and threatened to continue to do so until they capitulated unconditionally. Even then it took decades to really get what you mistakenly call 'democracy' to take root. A similar case was Nazi Germany. It wasn't until their nation was utterly destroyed, their leaders in prison or dead, and thier military machine reduced to ashes that we could even begin to 'democratize' them.
Your poor grasp of the lessons of history seems to be exceed only by your worse grasp of human nature my friend.
There are roughly a billion followers of Islam in the world. Let's say that only 10% of them are 'radicals'. I think that number is low, but let's use it for the sake of argument. That's 100 million people who are perfectly willing to lie, cheat, steal, and commit the most heinous crimes in the name of their 'prophet'.
Add to that the fact that those 100 million people are spread over approximately half the globe.
On top of that you can factor in that it's those 100 million who are absolutely fanatical in their devotion to the 'cause' and are willing to murder anyone who disagrees with them even slightly.
Now, your fine new friends may be sincere. If they are, I'll salute their bravery. However, the odds are that they are not. Hell, their own 'holy book' commands them to lie to us 'heathen infidels', so how do you know, I mean really know they aren't just tellin you what you want to hear?
Now, you get back to me when you've digested my responses to you.
L
Your statement implies that only conventional weapons are at our disposal.
2. The dems will eat us alive once all the body bags start coming home, making the world safe for Hillary, Kennedy and whatever future commies are hurled from our wonderful system of higher education.
See my previous response. One key-turn on a submarine can do a lot.
3. There are tens, maybe hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims who are disgusted by what is being done to their religion but stay silent or they and their families get the midnight garrot from moles planted throughout the world (note- see NJ) .
Yeah. I see them in those weekly street protests, shouting to the heavens.
4. The only way we can win this war against Muslim extremism is to encourage, support and align ourselves with these moderate Muslim elements and use them as front line of defense and offense against the jihadists.
I disagree. We can win this war by destroying our enemies, their families, their ideological supporters.
5. Medieval Islam can be pulled into the 21st century.
I disagree. Islam had a several-centuries head start on the Western world. It languishes in a state of violence and squalor. If you think a towel-head with a website and a penchant for press releases will change the world, you're a dhimi waiting to be subjugated. Do you, by any chance, have any basis in fact for your statement? You certainly can't use history. Sounds like an emotion with no factual basis to me.
6. Bush has made the right moves by helping facilitate modern democracies in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These can not only be used as examples but also sources of support in the coming war with the most extreme of Islamic/Wahhabists elements.
Just like the Saudis supported us this time around, after we saved them and their oil fields 15 years ago. Oh, that's right. They didn't.
7. All people thirst for democracy.
Then why have there been no Muslim democracies until we forced them on two countries just now? That's a simple enough question for a smart guy like you.
8. All people will defend those democracies if they believe they have at least a 25% chance of doing so. American support is worth 20%.
Once again, you're stating an opinion with no basis in fact. Your statement is unsupportable.
9. Defeatists are dangerous to the human spirit. The sap our energy and our will and must be opposed at every turn.
Muslims are dangerous to mankind.
Wow. Gurn, I respect your service to our country and I won't disrespect a veteran. All I will say is this kind of stragery is a chess game, not a round of checkers.
Politicians take the doable approach. The truth very rarely enters into the equation. If Bush advocated taking on Islam, how many people would agree? Incrementalism is the stepstone of politics. I am not a politician. I can speak my mind and still keep my job because my opinions are not connected to my job. The truth speaks for itself, this article is the first I have seen in the 3 1/2 years since 9/11 that has Muslims saying anything denouncing 9/11. You explain that to me. Especially when the Koran says that it is desirable to lie to the enemy of Islam about it's true intentions.
Bush may believe that there are "moderate" Muslims or he may be buying time for those who don't see the danger or some other reason none of us are aware of. Who is to say. All I am saying is that you need to hear what the Muslims have to say when they think you can't understand them. I think you should get some transcribed sermons from some good sources. Look it up, do some research, it will be a real eye opener
The concept of government of the people, by the people and for the people is barely three hundred years new. Give others a chance to catch up.
You are absolutely right.
I don't have to look it up....i have knowledge of it and where you and the other guy are wrong is that, and you can go back and look at my posts, you seem to think I'm standing up for Islam as a whole......I certainly am not and never said it......ever........but I would stand up for anyone that denounced terrorism no matter who they are and that includes the guy who posted this spread. The trouble as I see it is that you so hate them that you have generalized from my post that I support them.....tell me where I said that please.....and you must not have seen that there have been various reports on Muslims speaking out, not alot I admit but they exist and one group even took out major one page ads in the Times or Post....again in case you didn't read it.......I do not support Islam per se, I stand up for those who denounce it.........why would I need to read the Koran to do that...I know you are passionate about your point but there are also experts I listen to that say there are moderate Muslims......I'll believe them first if you don't mind
You have no supporting documentation against my assertions as I have for them. I made the initial claims (the advantage of going first), now you deny them...with the same kind of documentation you demanded from me. If you can't, my assertions should at least get a fair hearing.
You've never debated, have you.
We don't have that luxury. What if terrorists detonate a nuclear device in a major city? How will you feel then? Any people can assimilate democracy. I don't beleive Islam can suvive the " separation of church and state."
haven't some of the Asian nations that are Muslim survived the separation of church and state.....I don't know, seems like there are
I didn't say you supported or stood up for Islam. History is full of people with power that say just about anything. Know them by their deeds comes to mind and the silence of Muslims is deafening. If "moderate" Muslims wanted to end this they could start by pointing to the perpetrators of this evil and say " he's the one officer" but they don't. So they are complicit or they are in agreement. Whichever makes no difference.
bttt
It's the only luxury we can afford at this time.
What if terrorists detonate a nuclear device in a major city? How will you feel then?
Pretty bad. Show me how your worldwide jihad against Muslims can avoid that.
Any people can assimilate democracy. I don't beleive Islam can suvive the " separation of church and state."
That's the difference between you and me...I believe they can. It won't be easy and it will take the right combination of guns vs. butter vs. ideology...but I think we can do it.
You didn't do so, so there's really nothing to 'debate'. You didn't provide one single statistic, no footnotes, or any reference material at all. I shot down your unproven assertions and pure conjecture one by one.
Take this one: " We cannot win an all out war with 1 billion people." This is an not only an unproven assertion, it's flat out wrong. The Axis powers numbered very nearly a billion in WWII, and we defeated them utterly. It was a long, hard, ugly slog, but we did defeat them.
We don't lack the means, our nuclear submarines alone possess more than enough destructive power to destroy ever single bastion of Islamic government on the face of the earth 3 or 4 times over.
If you'd like, I'll do the math for you. One Ohio class sub carries 24 nuclear missiles, each with between 12 and 18 warheads yielding 150 kilotons each. Each of those warheads can be independently targeted.
We don't lack the means to destroy Islam as a 'world religion', we lack the political will. There's a huge difference between the two.
Now, when you have some sort of cogent responses to what I wrote back to you, we can continue the discussion. Until then, please spare me poorly written sentences such as:
"You have no supporting documentation against my assertions as I have for them.
I can't even figure out what that is supposed to mean, let alone respond to it.
Thanks in advance.
L
and you know what......I agree with that 100%.....in fact, I don't think they have done nearly as much though I'm sure more than you or I have seen since the MSM wouldn't cover it....what got me is that I agree with most of what you say, but was then attacked initially when all I did was applaud the denunciation of terrorism on the initial thread....someones hatred got to be so much that they attacked me for no good reason......so in essence they created a new "enemy" of the thread .....that is what hatred can do sometimes......
All I ask is for you to find some sites that translate the Arabic sermons of Islam to English. If you have read any you would not be saying what you say. Muslims are not as secure in asia as they wish to be. When they are you will hear the same teachings. I say teachings as opposed to rhetoric. There is a big difference.
Lurker,
you need to get more facts on WWII. In 1940, the entire population of the world was 2.3 billion. The Axis powers which included Germany, Japan, Italy,Romania, Bulgaria, Finland and Hungary had an appox population of 214,050,000
I am not attacking you. We have a differece of opinion and this is a healthy debate. I am willing to listen and you are not getting irate, and that is a good thing. I don't know if what we read and hear is absolute but there must be a clear concensus of what to do and where to focus. The President and Congress have so much more information than we and as Winston Churchill said, The first casualty of war is the truth.
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