Islamofascism: The Clash of Civilizations is West vs. West

MichaelNovak ^ | 1/10/2005 | Michael Novak

[rob777]

The above is a theme that Dr. Novak goes into in greater depth in his latest book: "The Universal Hunger for Liberty"

[ex-snook]

Can't some IslamoCommos be found to conteract them?

[Dark Skies]

bttt

[tkathy]

Their brutality springs from ISLAM not from European fascism (the Europeans may have learned from the Islamists who tried to conquer Europe centuries before.

[Dark Skies]

Islam is a religion of reward and punishment; hence, in some sense, of personal responsibility.

This guy starting reading up on Islam yesterday apparently. Even FR Islamolurkers wouldn't make such a stupid statement.

Islam is quite the opposite. It is about placing the blame elsewhere.

Why does this author think women are forced to where burkas? Why are victims of rape NOT the perp stoned to death? Why is criticism of Islam and their pedo-prophet apostasy? It certainly ain't due to the assumption of responsibility.

[mercy]

BUMP!

[Restorer]

Islam is a religion of reward and punishment; hence, in some sense, of personal responsibility.

He is referring to Judgment Day, where sinners will be punished and servants of God rewarded.

He is not talking about whether all Muslims assume proper responsibility for their own actions in this world.

[Socratic]

"It is the face of Muslim fascists murdering Muslim liberals."

What a false dichotomy this is! It seeks to imply that non-liberals are fascists. In fact, they both seek to promote the state over the individual. The fact is, these were fascist/liberals versus the conservative/individualists. I hope none on FR ever cease to hold liars accountable.

[rob777]

"Why does this author think women are forced to where burkas? Why are victims of rape NOT the perp stoned to death? Why is criticism of Islam and their pedo-prophet apostasy? It certainly ain't due to the assumption of responsibility."


His point is, that any religion which believes God holds humans accountable for their actions, implicitly upholds the notion of personal responsibility. The fact that social practice does not confirm with theological premise is an issue which Muslims need to address. In his book on the universal hunger for liberty, he refers to multiple conversations he has had with Muslim audiences who desire liberty and despair that it is not emerging from Islamic sources. They sought his advice on how to reform Islam so that it is compatible with liberty without abandoning their faith. The central question was whether there was something within Islam that could be the basis for such reform. Dr. Novak's view is what was described above. In sum, the key to reforming Islam is to deal with the contradiction between social practice and implicit theological premise. The success of such an endeavor is seen by him as a key, not only to winning the WOT, but advancing the cause of liberty in general.

I would have to agree with him. Victory in the WOT and the spread of liberty would be immensely accelerated if Islam can be reformed from within. The only way that can happen is if there can be found some basic principles from
within Islam that will support such reform. Simply proclaiming that no such principles exist is playing into to hands of the Islamofascists, who will stop at nothing to
prevent any such reform from occurring.

[rob777]

"It is the face of Muslim fascists murdering Muslim liberals."

What a false dichotomy this is! It seeks to imply that non-liberals are fascists.



He is using the term "liberal" in its classical sense, not in its modern sense. The modern usage of the terms liberal and conservative, at least in the U.S., are exactly the opposite of how they are used in their classical sense.

[jolie560]

It is built into Islam the goal of world rule. The country where a Muslim resides is not important. Muslims will not adopt political practices of any host country, except to demand local issues favor them.

The end game of Islam is to kill or enslave all non-Muslims.

No other religion behaves this way.

[Socratic]

"He is using the term "liberal" in its classical sense..."

You are right, of course. I should have read much more of the article than I first did.

[Jonah Johansen]

I think it is worth remembering that Ted Kennedy, the Democratic Party under Howard Dean, Jimmy Carter, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Al Gore, Katy Couric, most of Hollywood, most professors at Liberal Arts colleges, work for, are aligned with and support the same exact cause as the people who murdered those election workers.
The lies and propaganda of Zarqwi could have been copied word by word from the moveon.org web site.

Before the election there was at least a tissue of an excuse for their actions. Now what we are dealing with is simple un-ambiguous treason.
I no longer feel like engaging in polite deabte with these people and I have little respect for those who continue to act as if we are dealing with the "loyal" opposition.
The position of the MSM and the Liberal Establishment on the war in Iraq; is the moral and legal equivalent of Jane Fonda's position on the war in Viet Nam.

[rob777]

He is referring to Judgment Day, where sinners will be punished and servants of God rewarded.

He is not talking about whether all Muslims assume proper responsibility for their own actions in this world.



He is saying that the social application should not contradict implied theological premises. The reference to judgement day and its application for personal responsibility is a point he applied to all religions that teach a doctrine of reward and punishment. This is spelled out in more detail in his latest book. Again, he is trying to supply would be Muslim reformers with theological ammunition against the Islamofascists. Personally, I think that he is on the right track.

[independentmind]

Yet we must not allow ourselves to overlook the great numbers of Muslims who long to share in the opportunities, freedom, and prosperity possible in our age–and who believe deep in their souls that it is impossible that freedom, individual dignity, equality under the law, and the rule of law should belong only to Christians, Jews, and humanists. They know these must flow also from Islam; they must belong also to Muslims. They long for an intellectual and political breakthrough.

And while we're counting the GREAT NUMBERS of them, let's keep track of those who say one thing in public and quite another in mosques around the world.

[independentmind]

bump

[Dark Skies]

Obviously, I would be crazy to disagree with the great improvement a reformation would bring if it were only possible. Though I am by nature an optimist, I do worry how the prohibition of "bidah" (innovation) might prevent any improvement of Islam.

In Islam, all it takes is some extremist to trot out the life of the prophet to prove how violent and treacherous Islam is at its foundation. In Christianity, we can point to Jesus. All Muslims can do it point to Mohammed. I imagine you know what that means.

[The Great RJ]

The greatest danger to facism and totalitarianism is personal freedom. The success of the Iraqi elections was like throwing scalding water on these Islamo-facist scum. They can never succeed without creating a police state.

[Dark Skies]

They can never succeed without creating a police state.

Or an Islamic theocracy.

[Southern Federalist]

What I don't understand is the assumption some posters make that Islam has a unchangeable essence. As a Christian, I don't believe that Islam is the true religion, therefore I don't think it is divinely protected from fundamental transformation. In other words, Islam will be whatever Muslims decide it will be -- whatever the Koran may say. Human ingenuity can in the end interpret any complex tradition to say whatever we want it to say -- look at the fool things that liberal Christians do with the Bible.

The importance of the elections is that most Iraqis are Muslims, and the vast majority of them voted that they do not want Islam in Iraq to be like Islam in Iran or Saudi Arabia or pre-9-11 Afghanistan -- and the Shia supremo, Sistani, was encouraging them in this. Who's going to stop them from shaping Islam in Iraq exactly the way they want to?