Who's the Anti-Semite? Arguments over bad movies show perils of self-hatred

The Jewish Exponent ^ | 1/27/2005 | Jonathan S. Tobin

[Shisan]

I stand by the line you quoted but not your interpretation of it. If Jews allow themselves to be held up to ridicule, as so different from the rest of the culture as to be deviant, and even to cooperate in the caricature, then in some way this will be accepted by those who are susceptible to this sort of influence, i.e. moviegoers.
This is part of what Lapin was trying to get across and what Tobin was obscuring with his ad hominem attack.

[free_life]

Straw man; I never made such a claim. I said that Gibson used unconventional marketing tactics to garner millions of dollars worth of free publicity. The film would have been just as successful at the box office had it been promoted the same way most other movies are -- but it would have cost much more to do so. Since Gibson was footing the bill himself, he obviously had an incentive to get the most bang for his marketing buck.

Still nonsense! I understand what you are assuming about Gibson, but you can know no such thing, it is merely a guess on your part and from all you have posted here it sure seems you do not like Gibson, his movie. The free publicity was thanks to those who did want this movie out and the reason they did not want it out was they hate Christ!

God wanted people to see Mel Gibson's movie?

Yep! It has a clear accurate message taken right from the gospel of Christ about His Son The Messiah and His gift of salvation for all people who are separated from God by their sin. That is His message and to get it out in such a large and powerful way would be clearly His intent.

Are there any other movies God wants people to see?

There have been some others that also have His message of salvation and glorify Jesus Christ the Messiah.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

So if someone makes a movie about America being a bunch of Nazi's then you would not be miffed.

Some Brit probably already has, pal.

I don't care enough to be "miffed" for five or six years. But then, I can distinguish historical fiction from documentary.

[kingsurfer]

I don't care enough to be "miffed" for five or six years. But then, I can distinguish historical fiction from documentary.

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I have every right to complain when a director innacurately portrays my country. I am sure most people on here are the same. A film does not have to be a documentary to bring about criticism. A good example would be Nazi propaganda films form the 30's ad 40's. They were made along time ago and but if someone started praising the directar ala Leni Reifenstal then I would make sure they knew that directors history.

I do not see why I would be less concerned about a film because it was made 6 or 60 years ago. I will not forget a film is innacurrate just because the film was made last year.

[free_life]

Not only is antisemitism a ongoing problem but anti-Christ-ism is growing to new proportions.

This continuing campaign of bashing Gibson and the movie "The Passion of The Christ" and/or attacking those who speak publicly in favor of Gibson and his movie or speak publicly against those who attack Gibson and the movie, is nothing less than hatred towards Jesus Christ as the Messiah of all people.
You are free to choose Jesus or not as the Messiah, He does not force Himself on anyone. But whether Jew or gentile, we who follow Christ [both Jew and gentile] are not fooled by why you bash Gibson or his movie. It is the same kind of hatred that anti-semities have towards Jews.

It will not stop me speaking out against anti-semities or being Pro Zionist or keeping my Jewish friends [some who are anti-Christ] but I [and other Christians] see clearly why you do this. Jesus said He would be hated because He is the Messiah and that the same people would hate His people.

So save your phoney arguments that have all the merit of left wing nut jobs who hate and attack America or Conservatives or Christians or Jews and Israel. The big difference you attack your friends who will endure your hatred because of the love Christ and continue in their love of Jews and Israel because we are commanded to by God and because it is right...and not for the many baloney reasons we have heard like we want to convert all Jews to Christ or it is Christian plot to conquer Israel..etc...

And yes there are left wing ant-semitic Jews that hate Israel and all it stands for, and that is what Lapin was saying.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

I have every right to complain when a director innacurately portrays my country.

Okay, let's see - historical fiction includes some things that are not historically accurate. Certain characters in "The Patriot" were composites of real people, some are just characters based loosely on real people, with slight name changes. Some characters were probably created out of thin air.

I can honestly tell you that I didn't imagine for a moment that every single thing I saw in "The Patriot" actually happened, but what is it, exactly, that bothered you so much?

There was a war. War is ugly. The people that really won, won. The people that really lost, lost. Are you mad because one particular Brit was made to look mean, or what?

[Zionist Conspirator]

The only surprise in Britain was that Gibson did not blame us for killing Jesus. He seemingly blames us and distorts history in all his other films.

Your statement illustrates one of the most fascinating and galling phenomena among ethnocultures: the erasure of the English as a distinct nation and their replacement by the abstract "British" monicker.

Granted, the villains in The Patriot were British, but in Braveheart everyone involved was British. The villains of that film were the English, not the British (which includes the Highland Scots).

While the Irish, Scots, and Welsh are enjoying an upsurge of nationalism, the English are being absorbed more and more into the "British" nationality. This is a pity, as England is a most distinctive nation and gave us our language (which is after all called "English" and not "British").

I urge all English people to hold fast to their ethnic identity, which is just as valid (and in terms of historic contributions much more important) than those of the Irish, Welsh, and Scots.

May I suggest an English legislature of some kind to correspond to similar bodies in Cardiff, Belfast, and Edinburgh? Or perhaps even an independent England (independent not only of Europe but of the UK as well)?

Forgive my selfishness. As an "English-American" I am singled out among all the peoples of the world as the only one without an ethnic identity or historic homeland.

[SJackson]

A good example would be Nazi propaganda films form the 30's ad 40's. They were made along time ago and but if someone started praising the directar ala Leni Reifenstal then I would make sure they knew that directors history.

Old threads, but you can still comment on them. Hollywood loved her!

Nazi Propagandist and Hitler Sympathizer Leni Riefenstahl honored at the Oscars

Riefenstahl Madness

[SJackson]

Mel left Rick Rescolara, a transplanted Brit on the cover of the book, out of "We Were Soldiers". Maybe we can read something into that.

[kingsurfer]

PLease refer to post 44.

I said this:

The only surprise in Britain was that Gibson did not blame us for killing Jesus. He seemingly blames us and distorts history in all his other films.

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You then took up an arguement in which I was criticised for being offended by a non-documentary film. Just because a film is fiction when it is based ona historical situation it will be held to account. If it stereotypes or purposely makes one side look worse because of the Director's personal leanings then it will be criticised.

Am I mad because one Brit looked bad?

No.

I am upset because Gibson constantly distorts the British in his films. Jut because you liked the Passion does not mean that all Gibson's other fimls are so good.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Cynicom performs a valuable service trolling threads about anti-semitism and the Holocaust.

Why doesn't Cynicom go far, far away to some forum where he won't have to worry about support for Jews and Israel? Why does he hang around here and horn in on every pro-Jewish thread to pitch his little temper tantrum about it?

The miserable little naval got me suspended one time. Only time it's ever happened, too.

I think he should go to "Liberty Forum" and flirt with Tex-oma.

[kingsurfer]

Granted, the villains in The Patriot were British, but in Braveheart everyone involved was British. The villains of that film were the English, not the British (which includes the Highland Scots).

While the Irish, Scots, and Welsh are enjoying an upsurge of nationalism, the English are being absorbed more and more into the "British" nationality. This is a pity, as England is a most distinctive nation and gave us our language (which is after all called "English" and not "British").


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Granted. But Britishness was forced on the Celts. In most cases Britishness is essentially Englishness. While I agree that I am English I would love anyone to try calling someone in Scotland, Wales of N. Ireland British.

[kingsurfer]

Thanks. Is it ok to comment on old threads? I normally only comment on current ones.

While I respect the film the Passion. I do not like Gibson or his Brit-bashing films.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Hmmmm....

[twists imaginary moustache]

[SJackson]

Sure, as long as it accepts posts, and I think everything back about 3 years will. Once or twice a week I get a ping on a year or two old thread. Sometimes you'll get some responses, most of the time you won't.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Jut because you liked the Passion does not mean that all Gibson's other fimls are so good.

I loved The Patriot. It made me want to hack a Redcoat up with a tomahawk.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Well he managed to reinvent and make up all new facts in Bravheart and the Patriot. He is a known Brit-hater. Luckily he had facts to base the Passion on.

Ya know, Braveheart and The Patriot are not documentaries or anything - they are entertainment...

I'm really sorry that your fragile ego was crushed by some stupid movies loosely-based on historical events. It is a documented fact that atrocities occurred during the War for Independence (I had ancestors who fought on the side of the Brits) and no amount of whining, historical revisionism, or complaining will change that fact.

So, take a moment of reflection and realize that not every celebration of American or Scottish glory is a slight against the British, mmm kay? In other words - grow a pair.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Granted. But Britishness was forced on the Celts. In most cases Britishness is essentially Englishness. While I agree that I am English I would love anyone to try calling someone in Scotland, Wales of N. Ireland British.

First of all, "Britain" is an island named for its inhabitants the Britons. These Britons were Brythonic Celts, and their descendents are the Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, and to a certain extent the people of western England and southwestern Scotland. "England" did not exist until the Anglo-Saxon invasions that began in the fifth century. Therefore, England is a country on the island of Great Britain. In fact, it is perhaps the least British nation on that island. Why therefore should British Welsh, who were British before the English arrived, resent being called British? Why do you use "British" in a purely political sense to refer to advocates of Unionism (which includes Ulster Protestants and a substantial number of Protestant Lowland Anglo-Scots, btw)?

Why do you ackquiesce in the complete absorption of England into "Britain?" Of if "Britain" and "England" are the same thing, why don't we speak the British language? Why isn't it called "the English Empire?" Why not just erase the name England from the map and stamp "Britain" on it, removing that name from Scotland and Wales?

Forgive my horror at your cavalier attitude. Without a nation somewhere in the world called England and not Britain, I have no ethnicity, no roots, no nothing. I am merely a rootless bubble that somehow came to be here in North America.

It is the fact that "Britain" threatens to absorb England so completely that I advocate English (not British) nationalism, with at least some sort of political autonomy, and at most (though I know it will never happen unless the Scots and Welsh leave you flat) an independent sovereign England.

I may not be Irish, but I fail to see why I am not entitled to an ethnic identity and ancestral homeland as well.

[kingsurfer]

I do nto know why you make this so personal. I do not like when people brit-bait on here. I have massive amounts of respect for America and Americans and I hate when people tarnish their great image.

I do not like some of Gibson's films because he targets and distorts Britain and England. Many Scots hate Gibson for his gross distortion in Braveheart.

Nowhere have I said that watching a Mel Gibson film would make people target British people. That is something you have thrown into this discussion. All I have said is that he has distorted history to serve his own personal agenda.

[Chad Fairbanks]

I said that it was a Brit-hating piece of garbage. No one in Britain holds him in esteem.

Look! Up there! What is it? It's a lantern in the Old North Church! What was it we were supposed to do? Oh yeah, "One if by Man, one if by woman!" Quick! Someone tell Paul Revere to ride! Ride like the wind, Paul, and tell everyone, "THE BRITISH ARE WHINING! THE BRITISH ARE WHINING"...