Lawmaker wants to ban drugs like Sudafed

associated press ^ | January 10, 2005

[Bella_Bru]

Pseudofed used to be prescription and there it should have stayed. It is not without serious potential side effects and it is not innocuous in its actions on the body.

Acetaminophen can kill your liver. Should it be prescription too? Ibuprofen can do damage to your small intestine...ban it?

[TKDietz]

I don't see the big inconsistency. Look, I'm usually the one making slippery slope arguments. I'm a criminal defense attorney. I worry about things like that. I just don't see putting the psuedoephedrine behind the counters at pharmacies only as such a big deal.

Now, I am a little leery of the signature part. I'm not sure it's really necessary and if it's going to happen I think we really need to watch out for cops and prosecutors who will push for ways to invade privacy and over scrutinize law abiding citizens. I don't trust those guys very much and I know if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. But we can let our fears get the best of us and that can hurt us in making rational policy decisions. As it is a lot of substances are much more controlled than psuedoephedrine is in places like Oklahoma. Your name is on a list every time you get a prescription drug. The trick is in building in safeguards in the law to protect us from overzealous police and prosecutors.

I think that could be done even if they did keep lists of those making psuedoephedrine purchases. For instance, instead of just sending the whole list to law enforcement, they could require a warrant to retrieve information about someones psuedoephedrine purchases. The warrant would have to be based on probable cause to believe that a person is manufacturing meth or in possession of paraphernalia with intent to manufacture it. Then if the judge signs the warrant and it turns out the person has been making far more psuedoephedrine purchases than people normally do, prosecutors might be able to get that in as evidence to show motive, intent, or plan at the trial.

Or, we could just do without the whole list thing and see how much good just taking the psuedoephedrine off the shelves at convenience stores and grocery stores does. I think just selling it from behind the counters at pharmacies only would help a lot. People cooking dope in small towns like where I live would have far fewer sources from which to buy their psuedo, and it would be much harder to steal it. As it is there are probably well over two hundred sources where people can pick up three boxes of psuedoehedrine from each source in the little "metropolitan" area where I live. If they could only get it at pharmacies, the number of sources would be reduced to a couple of dozen.

Theft of psuedoephedrine would be reduced substantially if it was kept behind the counter. And we'd have less store clerks out there selling people far more than the legal limit of the drug. The few people still cooking small batches of dope would have to go to the few pharmacies in town where they'd soon be recognized as heavy purchasers of psuedo. This would heighten the paranoia factor for people involved with cooking dope, because it would increase the likelihood that someone would alert the police to their activities.

I hear Oklahoma saw something like a 75% reduction in meth lab busts. I imagine they would have seen close to the same high percentage even if they didn't collect signatures from people buying psuedoephedrine.

[mdmathis6]

Aspirin doesn't make your heart race even at 60mg doses like pseudophed can...nor does aspirin give you insomnia or put one into a hyperanxious, "fingernails on the chalboard", potentially explosive excitability state. Forget about using it with a hypertrophic prostate and older folks prone to "sun downers syndrome", for get it...you don't want grandpa getting confused and dis-oriented with it. It is called PSEUDO-ephedrine(false ephedrine) for good reason!

[TKDietz]

I hear what you are saying. But I don't look at requiring psuedoephedrine to be sold behind the counter as an escalation in the war on drugs. In fact, I think it would deescalate it some. We wouldn't have nearly as many busted for taking part in cooking dope. Look, we get a few of these cases every week in the small county where I work, and most of these people end up getting sent to prison for several years. If there were a lot less meth labs, there would be less people getting sent up for so many years.

The worst part about the drug war the way it's being fought is that we are spending a ton of money, locking a lot of people up, and diminishing protections guaranteed to us in our Constitution all for such meager returns, if anything positive is coming out of it. Restricting psuedoephedrine sales to pharmacies only and requiring that it be kept behind the counter is something that we could do that would produce measurable results without costing us a fortune or causing unfair results like the drug war causes. It just makes sense to do this. In the long run it seems like it would save a lot of money and misery, and the only downside is that it might be a minor inconvenience to legitimate psuedoephedrine consumers.

[mdmathis6]

Sure acetominophen in large suicidal doses will kill your liver or in doses exceeding 4 grams a day for a number of weeks(if you have to tke that much, then one is already in serious trouble).

Since they changed pseudofed to nonprescription in 1976 or so, the manufacturers have already had to change the maximum doses from 120mgs to 60 mgs q6h, with the starting doses changed from 60mg q6h to 30mgs q6h(not more than 180mg's a day should be taken of the quick release form) because of cardio vascular arrithmias, and mental side effects such as hyper excitability and psychosis, and exacerbation of swollen prostates. pseudofed is in the EPHEDRINE families and we all know what the ephedra class of drugs do. It is called PSEUDO-Ephedrine(false ephedrine for good reason).

My point is that I disagree with the "big brother" antics that states are adopting in controlling this drug. Just pass a law making it a prescription drug....they should not be requiring vendors to collect picture ID's and addresses of those who want to use the drug.

That way it provides a less unobtrusive method of trying to control unauthorised pseudophed use as prescriptions can be monitored and traced to the Doctors ordering and the patients getting it. If patients are multiple doctor shopping to get the drug(presumably for meth lab use), this will be picked up on!

[CaptainAwesome2]

Pretty much. He came to my mind because I was complaining about politicians and then realized the guy I felt forced to support for president is pretty worthless himself. It doesnt look good for my hopes of getting a real conservative president any time soon.

[radicalamericannationalist]

Your statistics raise an interesting question. Do the Netherlands count only those who show up wanting to get off drugs? In a society in which drug use is more tolerated, it seems likely that those seeking to get off the junk would be lower.

[Ken H]

Do the Netherlands count only those who show up wanting to get off drugs? In a society in which drug use is more tolerated, it seems likely that those seeking to get off the junk would be lower.

Looks like the figure is an estimate of the total:

"Authorities believe such programs reach about 70­80 percent of the country's 25,000 hard­drug users."

Also, in a country with harsh drug laws, I would think there would be much more reason to hide heroin usage, whereas the same would not be true in the Netherlands.

[TKDietz]

"In a society in which drug use is more tolerated, it seems likely that those seeking to get off the junk would be lower."

I doubt people like being junkies any more in the Netherlands than they do here. That would be a miserable life regardless of the laws. I think the fear of arrest and incarceration is low on the list of worries for drug addicts here. They're much more concerned about how they'll get high tonight, if they are going to eat, where they'll sleep, and that sort of thing. The threat of getting busted is just one more thing they put out of their minds.

[radicalamericannationalist]

"I think the fear of arrest and incarceration is low on the list of worries for drug addicts here."

Not according to the addicts I've known.

Also, consider that many of the where to eat and sleep questions are taken care of by generous European welfare programs, thus allowing the taxpayer to help keep such mundane concerns from the junkie's mind.

[TKDietz]

I don't know how things are with drug addicts in the Netherlands. I don't know any Dutch drug addicts. I do deal with a lot of drug addicts here in the states though. One thing common among them is that they don't think much about what might happen in the future. They live chaotic lives and struggle to get by, living in the present. You see this even with the ones that have money here. Their addictions consume their lives. What they are most concerned with is staying high. I suspect that addicts in one country aren't much different than addicts in another. It would be a crappy life whether the drug use was more tolerated than it is here or not.

[eno_]

I suspect that addicts in one country aren't much different than addicts in another. It would be a crappy life whether the drug use was more tolerated than it is here or not.

No truer words.

Now, what is the Drug War buying us if addicts' lives, and the number of addicts, is roughly the same in places that are not spending $40-70B on narcs and prisons?

Imagine how much smaller our CJ system would be without a Drug War. Imagine how much freer we would all be without the no-knock raids, silly "probable cause" generators like dogs, and without asset forfeiture. Not to mention $40-70B richer every year.

[Know your rights]

Aspirin doesn't make your heart race even at 60mg doses like pseudophed can...nor does aspirin give you insomnia or put one into a hyperanxious, "fingernails on the chalboard", potentially explosive excitability state. Forget about using it with a hypertrophic prostate and older folks prone to "sun downers syndrome", for get it...you don't want grandpa getting confused and dis-oriented with it.

None of which is as bad as dying from aspirin overdose. So should aspirin be available by prescription only?

[mdmathis6]

No...people had heart attacks and died because the original over the counter dosages were too high! It's a wonder pseudo fed hasn't been sued off the market. W

Also don't lose the point, the article was speaking of the use of Pseudofed as an ingredient for Crystal Meth and the need to control its sale.

Aspirin doesn't get you high and seems to be one of the med's of choice(Tylenol is also a favorite) for borderline females attempts at attention seeking suicide attempts. That, and can be a cause of GI bleeds for old folks taking other anticoagulants. Other wise in low doses Aspirin doesn't have the more profound cardio vascular effects that Pseudofed can have at its low doses.

[Know your rights]

Also don't lose the point, the article was speaking of the use of Pseudofed as an ingredient for Crystal Meth and the need to control its sale.

I'm not the one who brought up its harmful effects when unconverted to meth.

Aspirin doesn't get you high

Does pseudophedrine? I never heard of anyone taking it recreationally.

[Redcloak]

It's for the chirlins, doncha know.

[Bean Counter]

The Meth problem has become so pervasive, our firemen are at serious risk when they respond to house fires. They never know whaen they may have another meth lab explode in thier faces, and the cookers will set up shop anywhere; motels, in campers in parking lots, rental houses in YOUR neighborhood.

A lot of people complain about the inconvienience of signing for Sudafed, but do any of them have a better idea on how to deny Meth pre-cursor chemicals from criminals??

This is a very complex problem dealing with a horrible drug. Treatment alone is not the answer.

[Dog Gone]

I think the question is whether these actions deprive the pre-cursor chemicals from the criminals. It makes it marginally more difficult on them, but on everyone else as well.

[mdmathis6]

I have...some people like pseudofed as a cheap high since it "jazzes" you up when you should otherwise be sleeping off your cold. It is the main ingredient in most "non-drowsy" cold relief medicines.

It was the news articles and main posting that brought up pseudofed as a main ingredient for meth, as the reason's cited for attempts by states to curb pseudofed sales.

[Bean Counter]

Here's a fact for you to chew on.

Here in Clark County, WA, a man was arraigned yesterday and is in jail on a $350,000.00 bond, because the other day, right after he shot up his Meth, he picked up his 13 month old illegitimate child, from the woman he was living with, stumbled, and fell on top of the baby.

He then put the bleeding, screaming, 13 month old baby in the crib, and allowed that child to suffer for 14 hours before paramedics were called. The baby died in the hospital the next day from overwhelming internal injuries.

So explain to me again how much of an inconvienience it is to get your Sudafed from behind the counter.

Making cheap Meth is NOT a victimless crime, and possession, manufacture, or use of Meth needs to be dealt with in the harshest possible way. Anything that can be done to restrict access to the pre-cursor chemicals is a good thing.

Period.