Posted on 01/03/2005 8:18:33 AM PST by kiriath_jearim
Your thoughts on Genesis 6...?
Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Why did He, from a Calvinist's perspective, "plan to fail?" How can God be sorry for something He did (again, from a Calvinist's perspective)? How can He repent? God doesn't change His mind...or does He?
God does change His mind (thus, the future is in flux because God is sovereign over the course of it...and He is no slave to Calvin and has the right to change His mind):
Exodus 32
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
God SAID He was going to destroy rebellious Israel, but He listened as Moses pleaded a case on behalf of the Lord's own reputation. As fantastic as it may sound, the Lord agreed with Moses and did not "consume them." Why did He go along with Moses here? Why did He change His mind? Because God made man in His image to have communion with us--in real time. That's why we are urged to walk with Him and pray. We can have a real living, breathing relationship with the God of the universe through faith in Jesus Christ.
Exodus 3:14
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
You expect Calvinists to be in agreement with one another on all things? Good luck. ;-)
I guess that's as good an answer as I'll get...it just seems that I have to believe in the bible, to get any answers to questions of the bible.
Gotta go, I'll be back tomorrow.
Commonly called 'natural law'. Calvinists are not generally fond of natural law because it doesn't fit to well with 'Total Depravity'.
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
God gave Moses a choice. A) Leave him alone so that he may consume them or B) stay with him (opposite of leave him alone).
Moses used the choice to make a case for his people and to "not leave him alone". Moses volunteered to be an advocate for his people. Later in 33:18 God tells Moses he will "show mercy on whom I will show mercy". Clearly he is not leaving it to Moses's intercession.
It would be beneficial reading for christian parents to take a look at this article, What In the World is a Worldview before they put their children under the teaching of someone like Sanders or others with equally heretical views.
You're right to make the choice for God's omniscience. But maybe you can look at the Bible as instructional as well as historical so that we're not slandering God's word as "incorrect.".
IMO, God does not "change His mind." Every word of Scripture is one, complete retelling of God's plan for His creation and how He has accomplished the salvation of His people. (By the grace of God, all Trinitarian Christians who possess a true faith in Jesus Christ are among the elect, chosen by God from all nations and races and times.)
But just like God became man in order to reach our human minds and become a human substitution as payment for our sins, God likewise instructs His people with human words and vocabulary, using Scripture in the if/then conditional subjunctive tense -- "if you do this; then that will happen."
But none of this supersedes God's righteous and complete sovereignty. Every leaf falls by the hand of God. Every hair numbered.
The greatest paradox for the Christian mind to grasp is the Trinity. Once we get that one, concepts like Predestination and eternity should be easy.
The above was the last sentence of my post. It is important that you see it again.
Now, what would the open theist say about God prophesying sin. It's an excellent question. This will be off the top of my head.
Perhaps he'd say that God works through people, and when they let God down then he's aware of it in the present because of settled events in the future that He knows will come certainly come to pass.
For example, if I know that Iran starts a nuclear holocaust in the next decade, then I'm able to say that Iran does develop a nuclear weapon.
The question is this: what did the Lord know about the future that was certain and settled that would have required Peter to have denied him early that morning?
I can't think of a single thing.
I don't see why. Either the bible describes truth or it doesn't. I claim that it does and base my belief upon the evidence it describes, the evidence of my experience and the evidence of generations that have gone before me.
You apparently reject anything described by the bible as truth and dismiss any evidence from any source as being relative beliefs You further attribute that any truth is relative to other truths without realizing that there are absolutes and they are knowable.
The human mind struggles to envelop the totality of God, but it will always fail. We are left with the divine paradox.
At first glance and in light of Scripture, your questions appear valid. But they can only be answered in one of two ways:
1) Either God planned His creation, made mistakes, erased His blueprints, fudged the numbers, altered His plans, had second thoughts, regretted His actions, went to Plan B, and ultimately, is a reactor to His own creation.
Or...
2) God is omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign, eternal, absolute, infinite, and truly "knows the beginning from the end" because He authored the entire production. God does not err, make mistakes, have regrets or second thoughts, nor does He fail at anything He does.
This question is at the heart of the Christian paradox.
I choose Door #2.
While Scripture is instructional, it is first and foremost a witness of God's redemption of His elect.
We can have a real living, breathing relationship with the God of the universe through faith in Jesus Christ.
Only by the will of God alone.
"God gave Moses a choice."
God always gives a choice--starting with: "...Thou shalt not eat of it...."
But, to take God's word at face value, what He said was:
"Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."
Did God mean what He said here? This is an important point. Was He lying? Bluffing? Playing games? Or, did He mean what He said, and THEN change His mind later?
How can a God that knows everything in advance, every single detail, CHANGE His mind? Change is, well, CHANGE. You know, as in different than moments before.
Amen and Amen!
If the bible says that God repented of a certain thought or act, then God did do so. It just might not mean what the average human means by the same thing.
My interpretation, however, does not change the clear words of scripture.
Prior to the flood, God did repent that He had made man because that is what scripture said He did. The interpretation of what that means must be weighed against God's omnipotence and omniscience as elucidated elsewhere in scripture.
I wouldn't slander God's word. God's word can never be incorrect. It would be perfect, just as God is perfect. The Bible is incorrect and contradictory in many places. Therefore, the Bible is not God's perfect word.
Inspirational, yes. Offers many lessons to mankind, yes. Divinely inspired, some parts more than others. Inspired by man, maybe in a few places.
But if people insist on taking every word as literal and true, they are going to run into theological road blocks like the fact that the Bible states in places that God changed his mind or God was surprised yet God is supposed to be all-knowing and immutable. The open theists have taken the route that God is all-knowing of the present and past but not the future - a limitted God. Some Classic theists use mind-numbing contortions of logic. Atheists say it proves God doesn't exist. I say it proves there are problems with the book, not with God.
No. Wait. You said: "Open Theism is blasphemy."
Now you're saying that we are not to take Scripture at face value?
You should consider an apology for the blasphemy comment. You're placing your Calvinist doctrine over what's written in black and white in the Bible. There many, many occasions in the Bible where God "repents" (i.e. changes His mind). Just do a keyword search in an electronic version of the King James. Read them. Don't try to explain them away or force your doctrine...read the passages. Read the chapters for context.
God created the world and the universe and it was "good." God had good plans, BUT HE GAVE MEN FREE WILL. Men rebelled against God, and God made new plans. He intended for man to obey Him...not to sin.
And these statements reveal the heart of man:
Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is unjust." Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Ez 18:25
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? Rm 9:20-21
I still don't see where God changed his mind. If Moses had left God alone, he would have followed thru. God's statement is provisional, "Now let me alone.... Moses chose to stay. Moses later led his people into agreeing to accepting God's offer for the Hebrews set themselves apart as God's people.
Again, If the statement God made wasn't prefaced with "Now therefore let me alone" I would agree that Moses effectively convinced God otherwise but that isn't what is being said here.
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