Posted on 12/18/2004 5:56:30 PM PST by PatrickHenry
Let's correct your statement.
While some young earth creationists are completely intolerant of any evolution being discussed, most are intolerant of evolution being discussed to the exclusion of any other view.
And I will add, from what I see in the media, it is far more the case that evolutionist are the ones intolerant of any other discussion.
They all built upon the scientific base formed by their predecessors and peers unlike YEC's which find all science to be false.
None of the above.
Since those "excellent points" were directed towards me, I have to concur. Anyone interested in the state of the art in creationist thought should look no further than post #568.
However, if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. -Stephen Hawking
Even pesky little creationists
Spooky!
You forgot one in your list. How the heck does a redwood tree get water from the ground to its limbs nearly 300 feet up? The theory of evolution explains so very, very little.
What other views are there that merit inclusion in a science class?
Asked and answered a number of times on this thread.
Where did the water for the global flood come from and where did it go, and how are the scientific calculations on this subject "not scientific"?
The historic event as related in the Bible states that there was a Canopy above the atmosphere - possibly ice but water at the very least in one form or another as it references the waters above the heavens and the heavens are the sky or atmosphere. The Bible also tells of a cache' of water stored beneath the crust which broke open. After the flood, scripture says the see floor sunk in places and mountains were raised up. Afterward, only 3% of landmass was liveable, roughly which is the way it remains today. I find nothing in the story that isn't supportable in the fossil record.
With a canopy, ultraviolet light would be filtered. Oxygen levels were likely higher which is spoken to in samples of atmosphere captured in air bubbles in amber - showing upward of 35% oxygen. As far as I know, evolution can't account for this. Things are supposed to be getting better, not worse - which begs the question of why one finds such things as 60 foot cat tails (the plant) in the fossil record. They cannot and do not get that big on their own now; but, interestingly, saturating plants with an oxygen rich environment of 32%+ oxygen makes plants grow really big. It is also found that the affects of this on humans increases response of the body's defenses. Canopies are not unknown to the other planets, and I'd imagine if Mars follows suit with Earth, the place to find water there is below the crust. A way to test it here is to test water supplies beneath mountains for their saline level and compare it to modern oceanic levels. It's been done and the saline content is much higher under mountains and in underground stores found elsewhere - which should be no surprise to you if you have bothered to listen to any of your major opponents.
What exactly is a species, and how is science wrong in defining species?
Did science care what anyone else thought about this when they defined them originally. No. The reason you ask is to try and make a case that while Science's notion of it is flawed, nobody else has tried redefining it which isn't true. It is rejected on the basis that every creationist has a different answer. Which isn't entirely true. But to answer it directly, a species is a group of animals that under normal circumstances can interbreed. Example - dogs would include anything from Siberian Huskies to coyotes, wolves etc. Science has different defined species for different types of dogs if I'm not mistaken, yet they are all dogs and can interbreed. Cats cannot breed with dogs and are thusly a different species and always have been since they were created. Not difficult to understand. We just draw the boundaries in obvious places.
What is the biological barrier preventing variation from becoming speciation, and exactly how does this barrier function?
It's generally called DNA and RNA and the full system which governs cell reproduction. The system has multiple redundant backup systems to maintain integrity within a body and while mutations may exist within a creature, you don't observe individual mutations being passed on generationally to effect the population as a whole in any manner, to say nothing of a beneficial one. The barrier you seek you've already found and known about for some time. It's just inconvenient to dwell upon.
Does selection occur ever? Has it been observed? If so, where does the information come from that makes selection work?
Sure selection occurs. That's life - period. And absent morality, selection takes on some pretty grim forms. That doesn't do anything for your theory; so, I'm not real sure why you bother asking it when you know it doesn't.
How does the growth of a fertilized egg occur within the confines of the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
The system has the capacity to put energy to use for the purposes of building itself up within the defined limits provided by DNA/RNA. Beyond that, it is fully subject to the law in that it proceeds toward an end - devolving and decaying over time till it's dust. It fulfills the expectation of the law by resorting to disorder ie dying at the end of a hopefully productive life. And I would again note that adding energy to a system is useless unless that system expects that energy and can put it to use. Absent that, the energy is destructive, not constructive.
Umm, does it go back and recreate the ones that didn't make it? Don't think so
"However, if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. -Stephen Hawking "
How do you expect a populace that cannot read, write or add beyond two digits be able to understand complex systems. Looks like we are headed back to the dark ages being led by the YEC's.
"Is this your way of saying that you were lying when you claimed to have a test for the 'soul'?"
I was told that using Scripture was not allowed, why would you of all people care about the 'soul' anyway?
The test has been given every time Scripture is given, guess what you either can't read or you failed.
What specifically about redwoods needs explaining?
Not the individuals, but the functions that died with the individuals -- yes.
Well, I admire your heady response. Let me try and understand it:
You acknowledge the points Havoc made so that makes them invalid? I think that is the standard response to Aquinas.
Or is it that the questions are old and you don't want to respond? Old unanswered objections are just as valid as new unanswered objections.
You do realize, don't you, that most of the objections to evolution are raised by scientists? How many years did self-correcting science take to acknowledge Nebraska Man? Piltdown? Haekel's embryos? Peppered Moths? Evolution of the horse? Maybe science isn't self-correcting untile the principal catches the lies.
As for evolution being an "historical fact," by no means is it an "historical fact" on the order of Lee surrendering to Grant in 1865 or the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.
Good point. Probably why they acept evolution as truth
Good point. Probably why they acept evolution as truth
"According to a Gallup poll released last month, only one-third of Americans regard Darwin's theory of evolution as well supported by empirical evidence; 45% believe God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago."
Then what is option five, six, etc.?
Sooooo.......then....which came first, the function or the species? Gotta tellya, sounds like Genesis
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