U.S. soldier sentenced to three years (Iraqi Mercy Killing)

NJ.com ^ | 12/11/04 | AP

[Askel5]

=== Now pardon me while I go bust a cap in Terry Schiavo's suffering ass, she doesn't look happy....


Give 'em hell, btw.

[Askel5]

=== I would have given him the General Patton, "You should not have shot that sonofabitch. Don't let it happen again!"


Patton fan?

I'll buy you both drinks.

[Cogadh na Sith]

Even after all this time, I can't justify in my own mind, death by dehydration which is the "accepted" palliative care in many cases.

I'm no help on that. I've only got the shoot-don't-shoot thing worked out...

As to the military legal issues, my idealism went out the window when I saw senior JAG Corps officers at the highest levels covering their asses big time when I took them to task for JAG's covering up for other JAG's. The cover up went all the way to the top.

I saw the same thing.... It's a feature of the system.

Going back to a previous point, I believe that the Army had no choice but to send a really clear signal on 'mercy killing' so that soldiers don't have to wrestle with the confusion and ambiguity you do.

You signed up for that as a doc. A lot of guys will never understand those points. I don't want to see soldiers burdened with the nuances you Must face. It'll get them killed and we'll set a weird precedence in trying to codify when you can cap an enemy 'for mercy'

As you have demonstrated, it is not easily codifiable at all.

Yet, we expect this G.I. to have had everything straight in his mind.

Nope, just: "What part of "don't shoot an unarmed man" don't you understand?!" (that's what I'd tell the troops.)

How do you know he was unarmed? 'Cuz he was flopping around burning to death with half a head and his guts spilling out....

If it were up to me, I would have given him the General Patton, "You should not have shot that sonofabitch. Don't let it happen again!"

Yeah, but by dragging in 'mercy killing', he forced the Army to Be Very Clear. At his expense.

Why, oh why couldn't he have just said: "Duh, I though he had a grenade....."

[Cogadh na Sith]

That's perhaps the kindest thing anyone has said to me.

Thank you.

Ok, I'm sooooo over this thread!

(PS: Reverend Killemall still frightens me. LOL)

[F16Fighter]

"Would you shoot someone severly injured in a car accident?"

Quite frankly, I'd have the tips of a 3-pack of crayons blunted in your case.

[Cogadh na Sith]

See my post 195, please....

[F16Fighter]

Perhaps you misunderstood me...

I deemed you analogy inane.

An America soldier fighting his enemy is NOT to be confused with nursing the enemy like a member of the International Red Cross.

It's called "war."

[Cogadh na Sith]

Tell me what you object to in my post 195.

I explain my point better there....

[Cogadh na Sith]

Tell me what you object to in my post 195.

I explain my point better there....

[kuma]

I've watched the movie Patton several times. Are you suggesting Patton was for undisciplined troops disobeying orders?

The terrorist that this Captain shot was no threat. That is also different from the Marine in Fallujah who shot someone that was a possible threat. Totally different scenario and yet you are uncapable of distinguishing between the two.

We have rules for engagement which makes all the difference between us and them. Rules are most important during the worst times not the best.

[myvoice]

I am not sure if you read my post #162.
MY POINT IS THIS IS ONE SUBJECT YOU HAVE TO LIVE THROUGH TO KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD OR WOULD NOT HAVE DONE. Capitalized for emphasis not to yell.
You have not been in combat (I am glad you are spared).
If you had been through combat you would know what you would and would not have done:
When You feared for your life and the life of your men every fleeting moment.
When you were captured and tortured.
When you lost men in combat you loved as brothers.
When you fell into a foxhole.
When you had shrapmetal penetrated into your body.
When you where shot and shot at.
When you were in the same situation as the soldier in question.
The absolutely only way you would know is because you lived through it and not until then.

[kuma]

You don't have to type in ALL CAPS. That is a way of YELLING at someone across the internet. Let's have a well reasoned discussion.

There are thousands of things that I have never experienced in life first hand but that doesn't negate rights and wrongs.

Whether or not I've ever been in combat or ever will be is irrelevent and used simply to try to make me and others believe that our comments on this thread don't count as much as someone else's.

A strong military run amok can and often does destroy it's own country. There are plenty of examples worldwide. Our rules of engagement and Constitutional barriers have made all the difference. Also the Honor of past Veterans behaving better than the enemy and imposing rules upon themselves for the sake of everyone has been a large factor in that.

The main reason for rules is to help you make difficult decisions in difficult times. They are also their to protect all the soldiers from having to live with someone who has gone ape.

Plain and simply put the guy was no longer a threat to the Captain who shot him.

The Marine in Fallujah was a totally different scenario and he did the right thing in the few moments he had to chose. I also believe the rules are on his side which is why I would be shocked if he got into trouble. The only possible reason he would is politics. Not so in the Cpt.'s case.

[myvoice]

"There are thousands of things that I have never experienced in life first hand but that doesn't negate rights and wrongs."

I absolutely agree, of course there are, except for combat.

"Whether or not I've ever been in combat or ever will be is irrelevent and used simply to try to make me and others believe that our comments on this thread don't count as much as someone else's."

I disagree, combat is something you would have to experience what you would or would not have done. I don't think we should kill people because they are going to die. However, in this situation, I would not dare judge him. It's one of those you have to be their situation. You think you know, but you will never know for sure, fortunately. I don't believe you do not count, I feel in this situation you can't say for sure with 100% accuracy.

The problem with your views about this solider is because War is not a diagram you follow to get to the end of the rainbow. Every second of every thing can not be planned. We can set guidelines, but war is not simple.

"The main reason for rules is to help you make difficult decisions in difficult times...."

Your key word is to help you make....

"...They are also their to protect all the soldiers from having to live with someone who has gone ape."

A soldier can go "ape" but that doesn't ensure the soldiers protection 100% guaranteed when in combat. I'm sure there are cases when soldiers have cracked, It's got to be hell for them.

"Plain and simply put the guy was no longer a threat to the Captain who shot him."

I think we established this fact. From what I remember the soldier said it was a "mercy killing."

"The Marine in Fallujah was a totally different scenario...."

I absolutely 100% agree.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.

"...That's sick man..."

I've listened to the screams and I've seen the effect on my men. Your response is simplistic and leads me to wonder how you would react to a similar situation.

"I also didn't realize that conservatives on this board were so into 'compassion'..."

You apparently don't understand the conservatives on this board any better than you understand the exigencies of war. That lack of understanding would be dangerous in combat.

Michael Frazier

[Cogadh na Sith]

I've listened to the screams and I've seen the effect on my men. Your response is simplistic and leads me to wonder how you would react to a similar situation.

LOL! Not by freaking out and shooting the wounded guy, I can tell you that!

[brazzaville]

"LOL! Not by freaking out and shooting the wounded guy, I can tell you that!"

I'm happy that you are sure of your position and hope you never are exposed to this type of situation.

The 'wounded guy' was toast (literally) and the sergeant was punished for political reasons by a military made gun shy by Abu Graib.

By the way, my choice of words in my original post was callous but accurate. Watching and listening to someone die in agony serves no purpose, lays a further burden of stress on already stressed troopers, and damages their morale. Lowered morale loses wars and gets soldiers killed.

"Not by shooting the wounded guy,I can tell you that!"

Whatever.

Michael Frazier

[Cogadh na Sith]

I'm happy that you are sure of your position and hope you never are exposed to this type of situation.

As secure as I am in the position that I won't make love to a man.

If you can't take the stress of having wounded around and have to shoot them for peace of mind, I wonder if you're in the correct business....

[brazzaville]

Good morning.

"...I wonder if you're in the correct business...."

I began to wonder the same thing after 33 months of it. Now I'm in the business of being a grandfather and that suits me just fine.

This has been fun.

Michael Frazier