st jude helps student!

[Natural Law]

No one in this thread ever claimed that the phrase "Communion of Saints" was the original copyright of the Roman Church. Nor was it ever stated that the Roman Church was the only Church. The Creed references a Catholic church, but that only means a universal Christian church. What I stated was that the Council of Trent added the phrase into the revision of the original Roman Creed and that they did this in response to Anglican and Lutheran reformations.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

M, yes, I agree with all you've written, but that doesn't negate my main point that the physical death of saints removes them physically from earth. Since scripture doesn't teach that saints in the presence of God are given super hearing, my question stands. Why should we think they can hear anything on earth? Thanks for your post!

best, ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

As a saint, I agree!

[viaveritasvita]

Purgatory?

<><

[Happygal]

Pray to the Sacred Heart.

He has NEVER let me down.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place ALL my trust in Thee!

[tjwmason]

No one in this thread ever claimed that the phrase "Communion of Saints" was the original copyright of the Roman Church. Nor was it ever stated that the Roman Church was the only Church. The Creed references a Catholic church, but that only means a universal Christian church. What I stated was that the Council of Trent added the phrase into the revision of the original Roman Creed and that they did this in response to Anglican and Lutheran reformations.

I would certainly ascribe original authorship of the line 'Communion of the Saints' to the Roman Catholic Church, though would date it many centuries before Trent (at which point there was no separation, the Orthodox still being united, and the protestant schism not haveing happenned).

You have again made the assertion that the Council of Trent added the phrase to the Creed. To satisfy my own doubts (which were few in this matter) I have scanned through the Decrees of the Council, I have searched the text and looked at every incidence of the word 'saint'; this addition did not take place at Trent. The full text of the Apostles Creed greatly preceeds the Council of Trent. If you disagree, please provide actual evidence (if such exist) rather than merely restating your error.

The Lutherans and Anglicans did not change the Creed. The phrase was already in the Creed by the time that the separated from Rome. They merely translated 'Credo in Deum' into their vernacular languages.

[tjwmason]

Purgatory?

This will certainly drive us yet further from the original post (which by the way, was merely a public affirmation of the Grace of God); and I have to say, I have little inclination to yet another fruitless debate about which bits of the Faith protestantism chucked out.

To answer yours question (presuming that there was a question, rather than a mere question makr); given that most of us are not fully prepared for heaven at the moment of our death, we can be purged from our remaining sins in purgatory - in many ways it is better to conceive this as a process than a place.

[SoothingDave]

What I stated was that the Council of Trent added the phrase into the revision of the original Roman Creed and that they did this in response to Anglican and Lutheran reformations.

What proof do you offer for this bizarre claim?

SD

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Marcellinus,

Don't see a way to reply to your private email, but I did want to respond...

Your argument that there are many things Christ said that weren't recorded is true as far as it goes. To extend it to say that we can therefore believe whatever we wish beyond scripture is taking it to another whole level, which I don't agree with.

Once you leave the written Word of God and believe whatever you like because it feels good, well, you may be right or you may be absolutely wrong.

To make that the basis of your whole argument that physically dead saints CAN hear us is at best an argument from silence. Those are not convincing.

Wishing you the best, AMPU

[Natural Law]

THE OLD ROMAN CREED
AS QUOTED BY TERTULLIAN (c. 200)

De Virg. Vel.
Believing in one God Almighty, maker of the world,
and His Son, Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary,
crucified under Pontius Pilate, on the third day brought to life from the dead, received in heaven, sitting now at the right hand of the Father, will come to judge the living and the dead who has sent from the Father the Holy Ghost. to govern believers through resurrection of the flesh.

Latin Text (ca. A.D. 700)
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem; Creatorem coeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum, Dominum nostrum; qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine; passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus; descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad coelos; sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis; inde venturus (est) judicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.

The reference to Saints is in neither so it had to have been added later.

By the way, the definition of a Saint is a human soul who now resides in Heaven. All believers are destined to become Saints, eventually, but I still don't believe that they have better access to God's ear or hold more sway than I do.

[tjwmason]

Latin Text (ca. A.D. 700)
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem; Creatorem coeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum, Filium ejus unicum, Dominum nostrum; qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine; passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus; descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis; ascendit ad coelos; sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis; inde venturus (est) judicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.

The reference to Saints is in neither so it had to have been added later.

For your ease of use I have placed the relevant phrase into bold. Sanctorum communionem means the communion of saints, its not a terribly difficult translation to see either.

By the way, the definition of a Saint is a human soul who now resides in Heaven. All believers are destined to become Saints, eventually, but I still don't believe that they have better access to God's ear or hold more sway than I do.

On the firt part, exactly. The second, depends on how you define 'believer' but I suspect that we do agree. On the third part we just don't.

[Poohbah]

Althogh I am a Catholic I have never accepted the Church's embrace of Saints. I am devoutly monotheistic.

I do not doubt that God has often chosen to act through special people and that these people are somewhat blessed. I do not accept that they continue to act from Heaven with the powers of God.

Do you ask your fellow parishoners to pray for you?

[SoothingDave]

Latin Text (ca. A.D. 700)
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem; Creatorem coeli et terrae...

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.

The reference to Saints is in neither so it had to have been added later.

Perhaps your Latin is rusty, but "sanctorum communionem" means "communion of saints."

SD