How Much Time Is Left? (The Parallel Views Of Christians & Seculars)

LeaderU Online ^ | Nov. 24, 2004 | Dr. John Stoll, Ph.D

[orionblamblam]

> You'd be hot-footing it across Hell, cursing yourself for not listening to DannyTN.

That's what it all boils down to, isn't it. You're right, and those who dare question your beliefs is deserving of eternal damnation.

Bite me, doughboy.

[orionblamblam]

> '175 Examples of Skeptic Ignorance'... long been answered by scholars.

Then Biblical prophesy inerrancy should be easy to prove. Present good photos of those satyrs and dragons romping around in deserted-by-humans-Babylon.

I'm waiting....

An infallible source only needs to be shown to be wrong once to be shown to NOT be infallible. Present the dragons and satyrs. Show how Babylon has remained entirely devoid of human life and will do so for the rest of time.

[DannyTN]

"And where is Tyre today? A place easily findable in Lebanon. Lots of pictures of old ruins on the net... clearly, it was not a place scraped down to the bedrock, as incorrecctly prophesied."

But the new Tyre isn't where the old Tyre was. And most historians agree, that the old tyre was pushed into the sea as prophesied.

"And is Babylon still the nuclear wasteland devoid of all life save satyrs and dragons that the Bible prophesied? "

Well actually Babylon has been a wasteland for some time. Saddam was digging the original Babylon out of the sand and hoping to restore it. I'm not sure it's been completely devoid of life. The bible never says "nuclear", but it wouldn't surprise me if Damascas and as restored Babylon get nuked at the end of this age, which would still leave another 1000 years for them to lay devoid before the earth is completely destroyed.

Well, not anymore. According to the Old Testament, anyone displaying any tendencies to think democratically would be wiped out lickety-split,

Where did you read that? There were a few people who reaped instant judgement in the Old Testament when God wanted to make a point. But for the most part, God took his sweet time. He had Noah build a boat for 100 years prior to flooding the earth. Do you really think that was necessary? How many years did Lot, a righteous man, live in Sodom and Gemorrah before God had enough and destroyed them? How many warnings had Ninevah received before God sent Jonah with a final warning. And even then Ninivah repented and got another 70 years or though. God has generally been slow to judgement. But then you shouldn't take that for granted either. You are promised nothing. You could end up standing before him this very night. You just never know.

[orionblamblam]

> Well actually Babylon has been a wasteland for some time.

Still waiting for those satyr and dragon photos...

> which would still leave another 1000 years for them to lay devoid before the earth is completely destroyed.

Nah. It'll be several billion years before the sun bloats far enough to roast the Earth, and even then, the sun will have lost so much mass that the Earth will have moved outwards some. The Earth is likely to remain for several times it's current age; it'll be thoroughly unpleasant, but it almost certainly won't be destroyed for a long, long time.

> Where did you read that?

Some of Moses' followers were unhappy with the dictatorship he set up, and came to him demanding to be a part of the decision making process (democracy). God done kilt 'em good. Had the ground swallow up a few thousand, had a plague wipe out a bunch too, as memory serves.

>He had Noah build a boat for 100 years prior to flooding the earth. Do you really think that was necessary?

Course not. God coulda just told Noah, "Walk about 20 or 30 miles inland from this here sea, and when it floods, you'll be fine." But, no, he had to go and get all overly dramatic...

> You could end up standing before him this very night. You just never know.

Yes, and you could well end up standing before Crom this very night. When he asks you the Riddle of Steel, will you answer correctly? Or will he cast you out of Valhalla and laugh at you?

[orionblamblam]

> Well actually Babylon has been a wasteland for some time. Saddam was digging the original Babylon out of the sand and hoping to restore it.

Given that God said - supposedly - that men woudl never stay there again, it's interest that not only Saddam Hussein but also the US Army seem to have defeated God.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/babylon.htm
"Multinational Division South Central Iraq is headquartered in the amphitheatre at Babylon. Designed to protect the historic Babylon ruins next to the Euphrates river from looters, the camp is home to a number of coalition countries supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom, including Poland, Spain, the United Kingdom, France and Germany, all under the command of the Multinational Defense force Southeast, or MND(SE).

When Navy Seabees attached to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force (I MEF) advanced into the ancient biblical city of Babylon at the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF), they arrived to find the city?s museum and its ruins looted and damaged. After Marines secured the city to protect it from further destruction, the Seabees built Camp Babylon around the ancient city in order to protect one of history?s most important archaeological treasures."


And not a single mention of dragons. You'd think the 101st Airborne would be hunting them buggers down. Make a great trophy for the baracks, no?

[Podkayne]

...the underlying message, which is that mankind senses a forthcoming apocalyptic

This has gone on for eons. Mankind senses the end of the world 24/7. Almost like separation anxiety. If its not one end time scenario it's another. we don't need any encouragement to dream up fears.

[Buggman]

Oh, please, is that the best you can do?

First of all, "Sources seem to disagree on that," does not prove the falsity of the prophecy. Many sources do agree with the scenario that I've laid out, such as this page, which isn't exactly a Christian apologist site.

Second, you're presupposing that neither Adam nor Cain nor the giver of the prophecy existed, not that someone who really existed goofed a prophecy by imventing a couple of names. What you're really saying is that the writer of Genesis was too much of a moron to get his story straight--and given the details of Genesis that we can verify as historically accurate (e.g. the existence of the Hittite empire and Ninevah, both once disputed, the realistic portrayal of 2nd millennium B.C. sites and customs, etc.), that's a proposition that only an ignoramus on the subject would try to pass off.

The fact that the so-called "skeptics" have to pretend that the writer of Genesis didn't know what he meant in his own language (since he gave both prophecy and fulfillment of both instances within a matter of verses) demonstrates more about the skeptics than the text: They aren't really skeptical in the classical sense--they're looking for any pretext to arrive at their predetermined position.

Such a "skeptic" doesn't deserve the name.

[Matchett-PI]

Partial Preterism
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html

[MissAmericanPie]

I really have to wonder if any of these "scholars" ever really read the Bible, because they sure do not know what they are talking about.

Number one, God has made it abundantly clear that this Earth is His, made for Himself to dwell in. His favorite place in the entire universe is Jerusalem where he intends to reside in the Holy City, called "The New Jerusalem", floating above the area Jerusalem stands on today.

And since Christians will be where He is, it should follow that they will be in Jerusalem also.

Jesus said the night is coming when no man will be allowed to preach, "sow". We can see that happening now with political correctness vs biblical correctness. It will only get worse until all that is left is the harlot apostate churches written of in Proverbs 7.

Christians are being killed left and right the world over and hated here at home by the tares who sense they will be uprooted and thrown on the fire to perish. They think they can out smart God, and yes they do believe in God else their hatred and eagerness to destroy any trace of Him would not be taken with such earnest determination, with so fierce a focus. No one bothers attacking a myth with the vengeance shown by radical judges, the NEA, the U.N., and the ACLU.

We are also told that the Antichrist talks three members of a world body into loaning him their power for one hour and in that hour Babylon the Great is burned completely. The Antichrist steps into the void, created by the disappearance of powerful Babylon, and emerges as world leader talking peace, and by peace shall he destroy many.

China is amassing an impressive military machine with our dollars and our corporations need to be able to compete in a global market. Revelation speaks of an army 200 million strong that comes from east of the Euphrates River and kills 1/3 of all mankind. Any connection? Who can say?

All we have at present are similarities, the Harlot riding the beast that hates her, burns her and eats her flesh, could be anything. By todays standards the Harlot could be the USofA riding and attempting to control the U.N. which hates us. It's not too far for the imagination to stretch to the possibility of three member nations of the U.N. loaning their nuclear power to the Antichrist for an hour to get the U.N. out from under our veto power and our standing in the way of their global taxation.

Fifty years from now there could be a better candidate and a more likely scenario that fits the prophecies better. We have entered the "end times", where good is evil, evil is good, light is darkness and darkness is light, of that there can be no doubt. But the end times can last from a decade to fifty or more years. No one knows.

[orionblamblam]

> you're presupposing that neither Adam nor Cain nor the giver of the prophecy existed

Incorect. Clearly *somebody* gave the prophesy. Whether Adam or Cain existed is a matter of conjecture at best.

> What you're really saying is that the writer of Genesis was too much of a moron to get his story straight--and given the details of Genesis that we can verify as historically accurate (e.g. the existence of the Hittite empire and Ninevah, both once disputed, the realistic portrayal of 2nd millennium B.C. sites and customs, etc.)

Consider this: If I was to write a fantasmagorical tale of aliens invading the Earth using magical powers, and humans defeat them at long last using rites and incantations... the fact that I set the tale in New York City, and mention President Bush, and have the characters fly around in F-18s - all verifiably real things, people and places - does not give the story credence. If civilization collapses into a two millenia dark age, and, when the new rennaissance finally comes, someone finds portions of the book, and they recognize references to things their archeologists have dug upo, should they take the more startlingly supernatural aspects at face value?

[PhilipFreneau]

Regardless of whether a person is a Christian or not, it seems as if the question of how much time is left in the world is on the mind. To the Christian the question is, when will Christ return to take Christians home to heaven? To the person of the world, there is the question of the world blowing up, and the annihilation of mankind. Which view is right, and what does the future portend?

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God . . . Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." -- Psalms 104:1-5

[little jeremiah]

Thanks for the ping - my ping page is getting out of hand. I wish I could keep more than 20 replies per page... things get lost!

[tom h]

"China is amassing an impressive military machine with our dollars and our corporations need to be able to compete in a global market. Revelation speaks of an army 200 million strong that comes from east of the Euphrates River and kills 1/3 of all mankind. Any connection? Who can say?"

I used to believe the enemy here was China but my defense and aerospace background says that fielding an army of 200 million is impossible.

But it would not be impossible for Muslims fanatics totaling 200 million -- about 1/5 of their total number worldwide -- to swear vengeance against America and the West and attack us like the insurgents in Iraq and the virgin-seeking suicide bombers in the West Bank. Now this is possible logistically. Radical clerics would exhort all able-bodies Muslims across the globe to attack America however they can, and the world would experience Jerusalem- and Bahgdad-type violence worldwide.

Not that I ever doubted the truthfulness of Scripture, but ... the 200 million-man Chinese army was a bit far-fetched.

[tom h]

Lindy, orionblamblam proved me right. 40 posts after he emerged he is still fighting all of the Christians who decided to weigh in. No amount of reason will convince him. It is clear he was looking for a fight when he first posted. He's not a liberal troll but he's like one of those obnoxious persons at a party who stands in the corner and says contrary things out loud to deliberately get people riled, and enjoys arguing people down for sport.

[Lindykim]

I agree with your assessment although I think he is a troll, even if he's not a Lib. Most generally his sort are armed with a few simple-simon 'slogan speech' type responses. When they run out of those, they resort to name-calling and/or 'no-thinkum' accusations like "that's a non-sequitor."

[Lindykim]

snip...This has gone on for eons. Mankind senses the end of the world 24/7. Almost like separation anxiety. If its


While that is true, the important thing is this: that mankind has this sense of the "end". Think on that......ponder its' underlying meaning. Why should mankind have this fear at all?
{rhetorical question}

[Bandaneira]

The Master of the Universe is really working on humankind right now. Truth is pouring into the zeitgeist. People are rapidly realizing the divine nature of the interconnectedness of creation. I have known this for a long, long time. I'm glad a lot of other people are waking up to this fact. The next few weeks and months are so full of potential for both pure evil and pure good that we really are living in quite amazing times.

[Bandaneira]

The carpenter from Nazareth is not returning. Read about the "Twelfth Article of Faith" as explained by Maimonides

[Bandaneira]

The belief in the carpenter from Nazareth as the messiah is a stop-gap for many people on the spiritual mountain. The belief will not exist in the minds of men in future decades, just as the belief that the earth was flat lost all credibility after the 1600's.

New discoveries, or revelations of hidden yet always existing truths can shock the prevailing mindset and cultural settings of a civilization, but that is how history progresses.

[Bandaneira]

Do you want to bet that the next eight and a half months are going to be truly amazing ?