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Stop the World! Second Thoughts by a First Rank Economist OR The Case for Free Trade Crumbles
Unsustainable.org ^ | 9/17/2004 | Eamon Fingleton

Posted on 11/20/2004 9:56:42 AM PST by curiosity

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To: nanak
I think your should read THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS by ADAM SMITH.

A bit dated, don't you think? Especially considering the fact that it was written before the industrial revolution.

61 posted on 11/20/2004 2:06:54 PM PST by curiosity
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To: Paperdoll
Unemployment is a natural result of outsourcing.

Profound. So employment must necessarily be the natural result of insourcing.

62 posted on 11/20/2004 2:09:46 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: curiosity

By your standard, the Theory of Relativity is dated.


63 posted on 11/20/2004 2:12:07 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: TopQuark
Firstly, the benefits accrue not only to investors (who are incidentally, oftentimes foreign) but also to consumers. Both are numerous categories: the vast majority of Americans are investors, and all are consumers. Most Americans benefit thus, even if you assume that a SMALL number of workers lose in the SHORT-run.

Your analysis fails to consider what happens when our workers loses their productivity edge in an export industry. If that happens, the whole industry moves to China (or wherever). A LARGE number of workers lose their jobs. If the workers cannot atain comparable productivity in another industry, which is likely in many cases, then they see a PERMANENT as in LONG TERM drop in income, and so does the country as a whole. That loss might be offest by lower prices for consumers and higher returns for investors, but it need not be. If a some of the industry's sales come from exports, the loss of the income from that industry will outweigh any gains we get through lower prices and higher investment returns.

The wholes in free trade theory have been apparent to academics for 20 years. Now they're finally being made public. It's about time.

64 posted on 11/20/2004 2:23:37 PM PST by curiosity
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To: 1rudeboy
By your standard, the Theory of Relativity is dated.

The Wealth of Nations was published over 220 years ago, in the 1770's if I'm not mistaken. Einstein published in 1905. Plus no one has yet conducted an experient that falsifies relativity. Many of the theories in Wealth of Nations have been empirically falsified. The Labor Theory of Value comes to mind.

65 posted on 11/20/2004 2:28:12 PM PST by curiosity
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To: curiosity

What of Smith's Labor Theor[ies] of Value has been empirically falsified?


66 posted on 11/20/2004 2:36:33 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

The notion that a product's value is a function of the amount of labor that is put into it.


67 posted on 11/20/2004 2:38:39 PM PST by curiosity
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To: TopQuark
How many, Janet? The unemployment is at 5.3%, which until a few years ago was considered MINIMAL possible even theoretically.

Tell that to the high tech workers in Silicon Valley who trained their lower paid replacements from India then got laid off and had to sell their homes.

Mr. Bush talks about a lot of things, that doesn't mean that he has solved anything for American workers. The 50+ year old workers who have been replaced by cheap foreign labor should go back to school? Who supports their families and pays their mortgages while they're going to school? I am not in favor of American workers being replaced by cheap labor from foreign countries. You call me a socialist. If that makes me a socialist (it doesn't), then that's your opinion.

68 posted on 11/20/2004 2:48:15 PM PST by janetgreen
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To: 1rudeboy
I tried reading a book by Thurow about 15 years ago. So depressing I nearly slit my wrists.

He was saying something about long term productivity gains in the US would be about 1% annually forever. I think we've topped 3% since then. Well, he was only off by 2%. Close enough for government planners and Keynesians.

69 posted on 11/20/2004 3:02:14 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists give me the Willies!!!)
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To: 1rudeboy

"Please see my #44. Your cabana-boy is the Leftist. I'll extend the same offer I've made to nanak. . . think I'm a Leftist? Prove it."

#44 is written by YOU.

I don't have to "prove" anything.

It's clear to all who see what you reply with that you are a LEFTIST! You see, you are your own best witness for that FACT.


70 posted on 11/20/2004 3:05:21 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh; 1rudeboy
A veritable collection of All-Stars!

Either nmh doesn't understand sarcasm or he doesn't understand that the leftist author agrees with these other leftist authors.

71 posted on 11/20/2004 3:21:29 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Protectionists give me the Willies!!!)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

[shaking head in wonder]


72 posted on 11/20/2004 3:22:10 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: nmh
I don't have to "prove" anything.

Then you prove nothing. Thanks for playing.

73 posted on 11/20/2004 3:26:18 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy

"Then you prove nothing. Thanks for playing."

I never was playing your childish game.

I have better things to do with my time and I don't waste time with rude little boys like you.


74 posted on 11/20/2004 4:05:19 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: janetgreen

I and my family immigrated to United States (from a filth called INDIA) in 1981. I graduated from one of the best engineering schools of The Peoples Republic of Berkeley, and I had to train my replacement from India (someone making $30,000.00 a year). On my current job, I am making half of what I used to.

We were told that we have a shortage of technical workers. Couple of my friends who went to the same engineering school that I went to are now long haul truck drivers. (We really have shortage of technical workers). My third best friend (MS in Computer Science) teaches at a community college. Ever since they started sending IT jobs overseas and started bringing technical workers in on L-1 and H-1B visas, the engineering enrollment in our colleges has dropped significantly. If our technical enrollment is going down, we won’t produce good technical workers, and thus we will lose our technical edge.

Now, our ruling elite wants to allow the MEXICAN trucks to haul back and from MEXICO to anywhere in the United States. (Looks like they need cheap long haul drivers)

What makes me sick is that while my brother is in fallujah fighting the ISLAMIC-BUTCHERS; my country is being flushed down the drain.

I say abolish WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA (Kill it before it becomes reality).

One question for all fellow freepers: One of the provisions of CAFTA and FTAA is “companies may have easy flow of business consultants in and out of United States." Can anyone please tell me WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF BUSINESS CONSULTANT IS? Or, WHAT ARE THE REQUIREMENTS TO BE A BUSINESS CONSULTANT?


75 posted on 11/20/2004 4:05:29 PM PST by nanak
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To: nmh
Newsflash: the first person on this thread to be rude was you. Check your reply #37, oh holy one. [hoot]
76 posted on 11/20/2004 4:14:24 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: nanak
I had to train my replacement from India (someone making $30,000.00 a year). On my current job, I am making half of what I used to.

You've experienced this situation, and I observed it when two close friends of ours in San Jose were asked to "train" some new arrivals (H1b) from India. Those new arrivals soon replaced our friends at half the cost to the company. Jobs lost, one of them had to sell his home, the older one died a year later, feeling hopeless of finding another job. He was 63.

Now our government is trying to force Mexico down our throats, and this also will cost many American jobs, but the naysayers continue to say this is good for America. Soon American truck drivers will lose to cheap labor from Mexico. I live near Los Angeles harbor, and every truck I look into seems to have a Mexican driver, and the FTAA hasn't even been implemented. More lost jobs, more lost homes, more bankruptcies will follow.

We're being sold out by our politicians for their "globalist" society.

I'll pray that your brother stays safe, nanak.

77 posted on 11/20/2004 4:24:51 PM PST by janetgreen
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To: nanak

So, your another that quotes Marx without internalizing the whole speech in which that quote came from. Go read the whole speech and then comment...that is of course if you have the capacity to understand capital flows and capital controls.


78 posted on 11/20/2004 4:29:57 PM PST by LowCountryJoe (Willie Green after a chemical attack would make an excellent selective unmasking candidate.)
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To: curiosity

Samuelson is not an economist. He is a Keynesian and therefor a fantasist who specializes in dreams of government omnicompetence.


79 posted on 11/20/2004 4:33:12 PM PST by ThanhPhero (Ong la nguoi di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: nmh; nanak

Tell me, in your opinions, is the Heritage Foundation a Leftist group?


80 posted on 11/20/2004 4:34:43 PM PST by LowCountryJoe (Willie Green after a chemical attack would make an excellent selective unmasking candidate.)
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