Posted on 10/26/2004 4:47:02 AM PDT by NotchJohnson
The Fair Tax (HR-25) would eliminate all personal corporate and personal federal income taxes. It would eliminate all federal payroll taxes, including Social Security and Medicare. The Death Tax ... gone. Capital gains taxes ... gone. Gift taxes ... gone. Excise taxes .. gone.
There's that 22% in imbedded [sic] taxes buried in the cost of all consumer goods.
This isn't my figure; it comes from respected economists.
Let's pull out the calculators. Let's say that a single mother with two children spends $45 a week on groceries. The removal of the 22% embedded tax would bring the price of those groceries down to $35.10. The sales tax would be $8.07. This brings the total price to $43.17. That's less than our poor mother would have paid under today's tax system.
Forgot to mention that the "fair tax" sounds a helluva lot more complicated than a 1040 to me!
Hmmm, never paid a retail sales tax?
Individual tax return under the NRST Fair Tax:
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"Forgot to mention that the "fair tax" sounds a helluva lot more complicated than a 1040 to me!"
According to Commerce Clearing House, the current tax system is 60,000+ pages long. That was before the recently enacted corporate tax bill which will add several hundred more pages to the IRC and no telling how many pages to IRS regs and Treasury Dept. Rulings.
The FairTax bill is a little over 100 pages long. Even if congress quadruples that before passing it, that is still an enormous simplification. The flat tax, of course, doesn't come anywhere near that level of simplification and, of course, we know from history that it won't stay flat or simpler for long.
"According to Commerce Clearing House, the current tax system is 60,000+ pages long."
Okay, versus 100 of the "fair tax" plan, but exactly how many of those 60k pages or more, are applicable to average, normal, retiree or poor person who files a 1040A or and EZ?
Geezer, your graph or whatever doesn't appear.
Interesting isn't it.
There is no form or report to an IRS or anyone else for a individual taxpayer with a retail sales tax.
That is what the NRST, FairTax is about.
Liberty and financial privacy to the American family.
"Okay, versus 100 of the "fair tax" plan, but exactly how many of those 60k pages or more, are applicable to average, normal, retiree or poor person who files a 1040A or and EZ?"
I don't have any statistics to respond to your question directly, but I would offer the following
(1) I heard recently that the ratio of tax filers who have their returns professionally prepared is now more than 50%.
(2) In the sense that the size and complexity of the tax code leads to the enormous compliance costs that burden our products and those costs get rolled up into our consumer prices, we all bear their burden. On top of that, those costs are extremely regressive in nature.
1) what is the plan to disassemble the IRS? I've yet to see that. Until everyone on the IRS payroll have been fired as legal pick pockets, FairTax is only AnotherTax.
2)So no instead of only the poor and elderly getting a monthly entitlement from the government, now everyone will! What good will come of that? None! People vote for their entitlements. People who don't have entitlements are considered conservative.
3) The proposal is that NEW goods and services are taxed. People will start buying used cars and garage sale microwaves which are not subject to this exhorbitant tax. This will put every business out of business except the secondary market.
4) The burden of paying this tax is on the purchaser. Does this mean we have to save every receipt to prove we paid the tax? If a business can't prove that the tax was collected on something I purchased from them, then can the feds comes after me to pay the tax again if I can't produce proof that I paid the tax?
5) No matter how you cut this, it is a 30% tax, not a 23% tax. The tax is calculated on 23% of the total sale price of the [new] product or service. Since the sale price is inclusive of the tax, for instance an item that cost $1.00, the price has to be marked up to $1.30, not $1.23. Right now at my state's 5% sales tax, a $1.00 item is a total sale price of $1.05. The tax is added to the sale price. Not so with FairTax. The 23% tax is figured into the gross sale price. So a $1.00 item is now $1.30. 30 cents is 23% of $1.30. You can turn that sideways and longways but it is still a 30% sales tax.
Convince me otherwise! :-)
The Fair Tax sponsors are entirely against a consumption tax unless the bill adopted repeals the existing tax code at the same time. That is what the Fair Tax Act does, by its terms. Repeal of the 16th Amendment is a constitutional process that requires approval of the state legislatures. That would be done, too. The FTA even has provisions to assure that a super-majority vote would be required to raise the tax rate, but only a majority vote to lower the rate.
2)So no instead of only the poor and elderly getting a monthly entitlement from the government, now everyone will! What good will come of that? None! People vote for their entitlements. People who don't have entitlements are considered conservative.
The good purpose to be served is that NO ONE will have to prove their net income to the government in order to get the payment. And the payment itself is entirely necessary in order to make the Fair Tax sufficiently progressive with respect to low income households. Regressivity is the main line of defense of the Democrats who oppose anything except the income tax.
3) The proposal is that NEW goods and services are taxed. People will start buying used cars and garage sale microwaves which are not subject to this exhorbitant tax. This will put every business out of business except the secondary market.
I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that retail sales of new goods will be defeated and fail. Yes, some will take advantage of used goods. Fine. But that is done now, for those who wish to do it. Under the Fair Tax, new cars would be bought with untaxed earnings. The cost of making the cars in the U.S. would drop by about 22-25% as the taxes on labor are stripped out.
4) The burden of paying this tax is on the purchaser. Does this mean we have to save every receipt to prove we paid the tax? If a business can't prove that the tax was collected on something I purchased from them, then can the feds comes after me to pay the tax again if I can't produce proof that I paid the tax?
No, the seller is required to file returns and pay the tax. By that approach, only about 10% as many returns will have to be filed. Also, each retailer will be reimbursed a small percentage to cover his cost of compliance.
5) No matter how you cut this, it is a 30% tax, not a 23% tax. The tax is calculated on 23% of the total sale price of the [new] product or service. Since the sale price is inclusive of the tax, for instance an item that cost $1.00, the price has to be marked up to $1.30, not $1.23. Right now at my state's 5% sales tax, a $1.00 item is a total sale price of $1.05. The tax is added to the sale price. Not so with FairTax. The 23% tax is figured into the gross sale price. So a $1.00 item is now $1.30. 30 cents is 23% of $1.30. You can turn that sideways and longways but it is still a 30% sales tax.
You're right. The 23% rate is "inclusive" in the dollar spent, so on an non-inclusive basis the rate is 30%. Just like the stated rate of income tax, which is also stated on an inclusive basis. The rate is being worked over currently to adjust it to the current tax rates and economic conditions. The 23% may actually be reduced. But even at 23%, the advantage is no income tax, no compliance costs, no IRS, no risk of audit and back claims in case an auditor thinks your business is a hobby, no payroll taxes, etc., etc.
Convince me otherwise! :-)
I won't try to do so entirely right now. But I would suggest you stay tuned with an open mind, which you appear to have. If our great president is re-elected, as I expect him to be, we will see more of this reform legislation. And with Chairman Bill Thomas running the Ways & Means Committee, the Fair Tax Act may even turn out better than it already is.
The Fair Tax sponsors are entirely against a consumption tax unless the bill adopted repeals the existing tax code at the same time. That is what the Fair Tax Act does, by its terms. Repeal of the 16th Amendment is a constitutional process that requires approval of the state legislatures. That would be done, too. The FTA even has provisions to assure that a super-majority vote would be required to raise the tax rate, but only a majority vote to lower the rate.
2)So no instead of only the poor and elderly getting a monthly entitlement from the government, now everyone will! What good will come of that? None! People vote for their entitlements. People who don't have entitlements are considered conservative.
The good purpose to be served is that NO ONE will have to prove their net income to the government in order to get the payment. And the payment itself is entirely necessary in order to make the Fair Tax sufficiently progressive with respect to low income households. Regressivity is the main line of defense of the Democrats who oppose anything except the income tax.
3) The proposal is that NEW goods and services are taxed. People will start buying used cars and garage sale microwaves which are not subject to this exhorbitant tax. This will put every business out of business except the secondary market.
I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that retail sales of new goods will be defeated and fail. Yes, some will take advantage of used goods. Fine. But that is done now, for those who wish to do it. Under the Fair Tax, new cars would be bought with untaxed earnings. The cost of making the cars in the U.S. would drop by about 22-25% as the taxes on labor are stripped out.
4) The burden of paying this tax is on the purchaser. Does this mean we have to save every receipt to prove we paid the tax? If a business can't prove that the tax was collected on something I purchased from them, then can the feds comes after me to pay the tax again if I can't produce proof that I paid the tax?
No, the seller is required to file returns and pay the tax. By that approach, only about 10% as many returns will have to be filed. Also, each retailer will be reimbursed a small percentage to cover his cost of compliance.
5) No matter how you cut this, it is a 30% tax, not a 23% tax. The tax is calculated on 23% of the total sale price of the [new] product or service. Since the sale price is inclusive of the tax, for instance an item that cost $1.00, the price has to be marked up to $1.30, not $1.23. Right now at my state's 5% sales tax, a $1.00 item is a total sale price of $1.05. The tax is added to the sale price. Not so with FairTax. The 23% tax is figured into the gross sale price. So a $1.00 item is now $1.30. 30 cents is 23% of $1.30. You can turn that sideways and longways but it is still a 30% sales tax.
You're right. The 23% rate is "inclusive" in the dollar spent, so on an non-inclusive basis the rate is 30%. Just like the stated rate of income tax, which is also stated on an inclusive basis. The rate is being worked over currently to adjust it to the current tax rates and economic conditions. The 23% may actually be reduced. But even at 23%, the advantage is no income tax, no compliance costs, no IRS, no risk of audit and back claims in case an auditor thinks your business is a hobby, no payroll taxes, etc., etc.
Convince me otherwise! :-)
I won't try to do so entirely right now. But I would suggest you stay tuned with an open mind, which you appear to have. If our great president is re-elected, as I expect him to be, we will see more of this reform legislation. And with Chairman Bill Thomas running the Ways & Means Committee, the Fair Tax Act may even turn out better than it already is.
Woops, how do I delete a double-post? The first didn't show up, and then when I posted again both appeared. Administrator, help please.
1) what is the plan to disassemble the IRS? I've yet to see that. Until everyone on the IRS payroll have been fired as legal pick pockets, FairTax is only AnotherTax.
The IRS is disbanded, funding is ended, taxpayer records are destoyed. The tax administration and collection side of things are turned over to state tax authorities, all but five already having retail sales tax divisions in place. The states will be compensated out of NRST revenues for administrating the system.
2)So no instead of only the poor and elderly getting a monthly entitlement from the government, now everyone will! What good will come of that?
No execptions or exemption from the sales tax, all goods and services are taxed. Simplicity, low cost, and no one's family is required to report income, expenditures or anything else to government about the financial dealings. No reporting or tax filings for the citizen is a biggy and one of the primary gains associated with repealing the income tax system.
That FCA is the equivalent of personal exemption of the income tax, with one interesting caveat. Every person in the country pays the same tax rate and gits hit in the face with it every time they buy anything at all. Increase government largess, they increase the taxes on every constituent not just the one small group or another today.
One tax everyone pays, one rebate limited to the taxrate on necessity spending (i.e. that price of fixed basket of goods and services that defines povertyline expenditure) based only on household size, not income, actual expenditure or any measure of wealth.
3) The proposal is that NEW goods and services are taxed. People will start buying used cars and garage sale microwaves which are not subject to this exhorbitant tax. This will put every business out of business except the secondary market.
Why aren't they out of business today?
Those businesses are having to pay income & payroll taxes and all the costs associated withthem. A cost that of necessity has to be recovered in the price of goods and services today. Under an NRST that goes away. The payment differential between used and new causing any sudden rush away from new will mere assure product prices fall by the amount that business no longer have to put out under the income/payroll tax.
Remember all federal income and payroll taxes are repealed. True for you the citizen and true for the business. The business no longer has to contend with either tax, resource expended in tax planning, accounting, reporting, litigation go away. In their place is the single rate retail sales tax based only on gross sales revenue, and that only from businesses involved in retail trade.
Costs throughout the chain of production fall with the repeal of income and payroll taxes. The result will be a lowering of product pricing commensurate with the savings realized by business in competing for your paycheck dollars. Competing not only against other retailers but incompetition with the options of saving and investing tax free, and as you point out, buying used.
The ultimate consequence is a much more productive and efficient economy, increased living standards and expansion of domestic and foreign trade in both goods and investment as the US become a favored tax haven among industrial nations.
Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee,
Rep. Bill Archer (R-TX)
August 12, 1996
- "A recent survey was done, in Europe and Japan, of the major corporations and I was astounded at the results. They were asked, 'If the US abolished its income tax and went to a sales tax, would that have any impact on your decisions?' Eighty percent of the corporations said they would build their factories in the United States of America. Twenty percent said they would move their international headquarters to the United States of America."
Think for a moment of what tax burdens removed from our manufacturing means to the prices of our exports coupled with the fact that imports will be subject to the same retail sales tax as our own domestic products under the NRST. No longer will there be a favored tax status for imports (their VATs are removed from there prices by credits from their home nations). Foreign imports will be fully taxed for the first time equivalently to our own domestic goods. That is called leveling playing fields and providing incentive for industry to flood into this county instead of fleeing from it.
That my friend is a prescription for reversing trade balances with the rest of the world, going from chronic trade deficits we have had for generations to a strong international trade surplus and rising value of our hard earned dollars.
4) The burden of paying this tax is on the purchaser. Does this mean we have to save every receipt to prove we paid the tax? If a business can't prove that the tax was collected on something I purchased from them, then can the feds comes after me to pay the tax again if I can't produce proof that I paid the tax?
No the liability for remitting the tax is on the seller. The seller is required to collect the tax from you the purchaser, and he is liable for remitting it to the state tax authority keeping receipts of his business sales revenue for monitoring and auditing by them.
The citizen has no more responsibility once he has paid the business any more than the state and local retail sales taxes you pay today.
5) No matter how you cut this, it is a 30% tax, not a 23% tax. The tax is calculated on 23% of the total sale price of the [new] product or service. Since the sale price is inclusive of the tax, for instance an item that cost $1.00, the price has to be marked up to $1.30, not $1.23. Right now at my state's 5% sales tax, a $1.00 item is a total sale price of $1.05. The tax is added to the sale price. Not so with FairTax. The 23% tax is figured into the gross sale price. So a $1.00 item is now $1.30. 30 cents is 23% of $1.30. You can turn that sideways and longways but it is still a 30% sales tax.
Convince me otherwise! :-)
There are some factors you left out of you figuring, Today, you are required to pay Uncle both income and payroll taxes in order to have enough to buy those same goods and services.
For a family of four at median income that amounts to having to earn roughly 25%+ more than your takehome pay just to be able to buy anything now, and that is on top of the embedded business taxes in the price of everything we buy spoken of above.
Under the current income/payroll tax you get hit with 25 cents individual income & SS/Medicare taxes
Plus around 22 cents embedded costs associated with product prices in the dollar of goods you purchase, leaving 78 cents for the base (taxfree) price of the product
Under the income/payroll tax system, the cost to you, the typical citizen today to buy that 78 cent widget is
- 25 cents for federal individual taxes
- 5 cents for state sales tax on the embedded tax price
- 22 cents for federal business tax costs
- 78 cents for the base (taxfree) product.
=========================
- $1.30 total
Under the NRST the cost to buy that 78 cent widget is
- 23 cents NRST
- 4 cents state tax on the base product price
- 78 cents for the base (taxfree) product.
================================
- $1.05 total
And you receive you full gross paycheck plus the FCA for your household with no income or SS/Medicare taxes taken out to spend or invest as you please.
I know which I favor.
See #33 ;O)
Nice work, as usual, geez.
Here's where it (not legislatively) calls for the repeal.
(f) FINDINGS RELATING TO REPEAL OF PRESENT FEDERAL TAX SYSTEM- Congress further finds that the 16th amendment to the United States Constitution should be repealed.
"Should be" is not exactly legislative or even compelling language.
The last I read was an article by economist Kotlikoff on behalf of AFFT proposing a sales tax to replace ONLY the payroll tax...
In otner words, the Democrats may not be lying after all.
AFFT is now proposing BOTH an income tax AND A SALES TAX...No surprise here.
The only legislation authored and promoted by AFFT is:
H.R.25Fair Tax Act of 2003 (Introduced in House) A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
TITLE I--REPEAL OF THE INCOME TAX, PAYROLL TAXES, AND ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES
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Thanks to both of you for replying to my post. Good info!
25 cents for federal individual taxesSo you're dropping everyone's salary by the amount of their payroll/income taxes? I thought I got to take home my entire check with the FairTax.
22 cents for federal business tax costsA gross overestimation. Let's do the math: 22% of everything sold in the US plus exports would mean the "federal business tax costs" would be $2.31 trillion! The total taxes paid by businesses in 2003 was $488.25 billion, and most of that was payroll taxes which virtually every economist agrees is really paid by labor through lower wages. That leaves a minimum of $1.8 trillion for business tax compliance costs! Most reasonable economists put the number around $100 billion.
That's the only mathematical way they can reduce prices 20-30%.
They'll tell you not getting a paycheck increase is a trade-off for lower prices. What they won't tell you is it reduces your purchasing dollar and disposable income...If you don't like it, buy used shit from the wealthy.
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