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Living and Dying in Tokyo
SFGATE.com ^ | Adam Sparks

Posted on 10/03/2004 10:08:50 PM PDT by sfwarrior

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To: sfwarrior

I like the story number in the URL :)


41 posted on 10/03/2004 10:48:23 PM PDT by BushIsKing
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To: dsc
That used to be true, I guess. It hasn't been for decades, at least.

I disagree with you. I look at whats going on with my aunts, who live in Japan. I look at how each of them treats their daughter-in-law and how they are treated by my grandmother. How different their lives are than my mother's life here in the US.
42 posted on 10/03/2004 10:49:22 PM PDT by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: dsc

Then why did the article say they didn't? You are the author, correct?


43 posted on 10/03/2004 10:50:04 PM PDT by Johnnyboy2000
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To: sfwarrior

"Seems like there is a lot of hostility in this thread. I guess conservative Americans don't want to look at their underbelly in a negative light- even if the criticism is written by a conservative."

You have your facts wrong. Don't try to shift the blame for that to the people who are reacting appropriately to misinformation.


44 posted on 10/03/2004 10:51:06 PM PDT by dsc
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To: sfwarrior
They can trace their roots back some 3,000 years, compared to a mere 230 years for us cowboy Americans.

Huh?

My family has been here for over 300 years, and the traditions of my people (Celts) go back for thousands of years. Hell, we created English Common Law, as great a force for good as anything in the world, dating back into pre-history. "Old and living in the same spot forever" does not confer value or quality on a culture. So the Japanese sat on their island while the Celts explored and conquered the globe? The European cultures are in fact just as old, but that is irrelevant as conflating this with some kind of quality or value is specious.

45 posted on 10/03/2004 10:51:25 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Johnnyboy2000

"Then why did the article say they didn't?"

Because the author has his facts wrong. It sounds like he went over there and uncritically swallowed every myth he ran across.

"You are the author, correct?"

No, that would be sfwarrior.


46 posted on 10/03/2004 10:53:05 PM PDT by dsc
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To: sfwarrior
Ugh - painful read. The author doesn't really know very much about Japan, IMHO - I speak as one who once was the very sort of wide-eyed gaijin as he, but I learned, after eight years' residence in Japan, that things under the surface are far darker, more complex, and more wonderful.

Let's try this one: The police there ride around on bicycles, and they don't carry guns. Why bother? The crime rate is among the lowest in the civilized world. The few criminals the Japanese do have often turn themselves in within a week; they simply feel too guilty, and honor dictates that they face the music of justice rather than hide.

They ride bikes because it's the more practical way to navigate the incredibly narrow and congested streets - and they do ride patrol cars as well. I am unaware of any particular tendency of criminals to turn themselves in out of shame; on the contrary, Japanese criminals are among the best-organized in the world. The Yakuza possess formal office buildings in high-rent districts. I often passed the Yamaguchi-gumi's digs on my way through the big town.

I lived near Kamakura for most of my time there. In several of the larger temples the sidewalks and hillsides are covered with little statuettes called Jizo, each purchased and dressed by women to commemorate a dead child. Charming and sad...and a bit more, when you realize that most of them are for the aborted. It isn't something the casual gaijin tourist learns right away.

As for the homeless, the author really needs to take a late-night walk through one of the larger Tokyo or Osaka subway stations, or perhaps dockside in Yokohama. The extended families that once were the mainstay of Japanese culture have faded under the pressure of economics and urbanization, and the face of young Japanese family demographics is increasingly nuclear, especially in the cities.

The real reason that cremation is preferred as a means of disposing of the dead is that it's mandatory by law except in very rare cases, and that is because there isn't any room for full-body-burial graveyards. As a consequence of its geological youth Japan is a very vertical country - only 15% of the land is arable and the rest is rock and mountainside.

But a Japanese funeral is indeed a fascinating study. The Buddhist monks chanting are hired specialists, and not every dwelling possesses a tokonoma big enough for lying in state. When you go to pay your respects you take a pinch of incense and bow formally three times. Now, the Japanese are a much heartier and earthier people than a lot of the lore in movies and books, but one thing even the most cynical Tokyoite will never do is stick his hashi - chopsticks - point-down in a bowl of rice. There's only one place where they do that - at a funeral.

One other bit of trivia - the proper numerical names "ichi, ni, san, shi," have, in everyday usage, the "shi" - four - replaced by "yon." "Shi" in another connotation indicates death. We'd probably do the same thing if the English was "one, two, three, dead..."

47 posted on 10/03/2004 10:53:15 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: sfwarrior

The author is mistaken when he says that there are no homeless in Japan. They are numerous. He just doesn't know where to look. Go to any of the shoutengai (the covered street pedestrian malls) at night and the homeless are all sleeping there, thousands of them, endless rows of them, in every storefront. The author may also not realize that what the Japnese call "day workers" are often nothing more than homeless.


48 posted on 10/03/2004 10:53:59 PM PDT by LeftCoastNeoCon (There are homeless in Japan...)
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To: sfwarrior
Seems like there is a lot of hostility in this thread. I guess conservative Americans don't want to look at their underbelly in a negative light- even if the criticism is written by a conservative.

I would be inclined to listen more if there weren't so many lies in the article. When someone relies on an article that factually incorrect, I can't but help think of see-BS and their claim of "fake but accurate."
49 posted on 10/03/2004 10:54:23 PM PDT by Retief
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To: sfwarrior

My sarcasm directed toward your article was in response to the uniformly rah-rah stance and your stating the BLANKET "superiority" of Japanese culture to American culture throughout the piece. I am in fact very supportive of the characteristics of honor, respect for others, etc. that you cite, but I am just not the type of person who appreciates taking whole groups of people or countries and making all encompasing statements about their culture, especially when comparing it to another culture. It is too easy to use it to encourage mindless patriotism for a group or mindless hatred against it.


50 posted on 10/03/2004 10:55:11 PM PDT by spinestein (Nov 2nd. Don't forget to flush the Johns)
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To: tortoise

It's amazing how some in this thread took the word "cowboy" as a pejorative. I think most of us, including W, see it as a badge of honor.

The longetivity of the culture has created lots of superior qualities. Of course there are negative ones too, but this column was about the positive side of Japan. Low crime, tight family units, respect for personal property, loyalty, honor and samurai living in a Jetson's techo-nation. The paradox of the Japanese.


51 posted on 10/03/2004 10:55:46 PM PDT by sfwarrior (Never Forget The Fallen Heroes)
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To: dsc

Sorry. I missed the quotations on your post. I figured most of the article was BS, but I din't think he would take it that far.


52 posted on 10/03/2004 10:56:48 PM PDT by Johnnyboy2000
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To: dsc
Sorry I missed your posts while I was composing mine - you are, of course, correct,and the author is a naif. I wouldn't put the Japanese people or culture down for anything, but they're not children and it isn't a fairyland.
53 posted on 10/03/2004 10:59:54 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: sfwarrior
They can trace their roots back some 3,000 years, compared to a mere 230 years for us cowboy Americans.

Hey, wait a minute.

Where does this author think that the ancestors of those of us in the New World came from?

Mars?

Spontaneous generation?

We Americans are the descendants of those men and women who had the courage and the will to seek out and conquer New Worlds.

Before that, our roots go back to the greatest European empires, to the Vikings, the Saxons, the Visigoths, the Celts and the Legions of Rome. We Americans are also descendants of the Russian Empire, the Chinese Empire, the Africans, the Native American tribes and the Japanese themselves. The list could go on and on.

We Americans don't have one single root going back over 3,000 years.

We Americans have hundreds of roots going back over 3,000 years.

54 posted on 10/03/2004 11:02:07 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: sfwarrior
This column fairly compares the superior aspects of Japanese culture

You along with the author start your statements with the premise that Japanese culture is superior to American culture.

So, unless we accept your and the author's premise that Japanese culture is superior to America's, we're wrong ?

The article may well have nice things to say about W, but to get to that part of the article, the reader has to accept the premise. I don't.
55 posted on 10/03/2004 11:03:34 PM PDT by pyx (Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one.)
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To: sfwarrior

"Low crime, tight family units, respect for personal property, loyalty, honor and samurai living..."

I don't know how true all that was at what points in history, but about the only one that could still be cited as in general application is "respect for personal property."

Except bicycles. Lots and lots of bicycle theft. Juvenile shoplifting is way up. Security cameras and floorwalkers everywhere. Then there's the bullying in the school yard, six and ten on one. Hardly in keeping with the "samurai" ethic. The victims, rather than toughening up a la "the Karate Kid" often just wimp out and commit suicide.

Perhaps most troubling are the reports that rape is greatly under-reported.

I don't know, though. Aside from the difficulties inherent in counting something that isn't reported, it's hard even to find a place to pick your nose unobserved in this country, much less commit a crime like that unnoticed.


56 posted on 10/03/2004 11:04:22 PM PDT by dsc
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To: sfwarrior

Just a couple of things:

A)I'm not so sure that a bee hive culture such as Japan is superior to a America's melting pot. I say that as a big fan of independent thought.

B)I have seen Japanese funeral rites performed in the U.S., as well as Chinese, Jewish, Baptist and Catholic etc. etc. The freedom to see a loved one off in the manner of your choice is, I believe, superior to rigidly proscribed rites. I say that as a big fan of religious freedom.

C)And, while it is true that Japan's culture is older than what is commonly perceived as "American culture," I'd argue that true American culture (not pop culture) is one of many voices and cultures. Again, big fan of the American melting pot, not to mention pizza and sushi.

D)And lastly, why is it that typical liberals (not that I'm name calling) admire the rigidity of foreign cultures, yet reject the concept of cultural rigidity when it's applied to America?


57 posted on 10/03/2004 11:07:03 PM PDT by durasell
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To: dsc

And umbrellas - LOL! - they'll leave their cars unlocked and lock their umbrellas up in little stands outside the hotels. I had at least three pinched. It's sort of like they're really communal property or something...


58 posted on 10/03/2004 11:07:41 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill

"but they're not children and it isn't a fairyland."

True and true. When people ask me if I like living here, I usually gaff them off with a "Well, every place has its good points and its bad points. Everything is a trade-off."

Which is true, but if somebody asked me where it's better to live (which nobody ever does, for some reason), that would be a no-brainer. There's no place better to live than the US. Further, the subset of Western Culture found in the US is the highest expression of culture and civilization yet displayed by mankind (despite the efforts of the left to degrade it).


59 posted on 10/03/2004 11:10:07 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Billthedrill

My sentiments exactly. The Japanese culture is one of the world's great cultures. But, the author should note that much of what he admires in Japanese culture could be viewed ad less than admirable by American standards. It is a closed society, and in many ways it could be considered what we call racist. I don't mean to follow the author's lead and make a blanket statement about a culture of hundreds of millions of people, but Japanese society has traditionally been very xenophobic. I would also note that Japanese society has evolved a great deal over the past 300 years, so it is false to suggest they have existed in a bubble. Japanese cultures has positive traits that Americans could learn from. America has positive traits the Japanese could learn from. It is juvenille to claim that Japan is a superioir culture just because you went there for a week and were understandably impressed. The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill.


60 posted on 10/03/2004 11:10:32 PM PDT by Johnnyboy2000
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