Posted on 09/18/2004 12:16:08 AM PDT by pook
Despite that, I do agree with much of your take on the situation. What worries me there is how Putin has so closely aligned himself with two other power hungry people, Chirac and Shroeder.
All three of them have visions of power and empire that I do not trust.
If I had even an inkling from you that you were sincerely interested in discussion, it would be different. But you have shown you are mostly interested in badgering, and not so good at reading and listening, just a sort of fevered-pitch posting. Good night.
So YOU believe it's fine to prop up the brutal and demented North Korean dictator, a man who slaughters his own people in the thousands, and to give him missile technology to threaten his neighbors with?
So YOU believe it's alright to provide nuclear technology to the islamic nation of Iran, a rogue state openly threatening a Christian nation?
So YOU believe it's alright to violate international agreement and illegal sell advances weapons to a nation under sanctions...that Russia publicly agreed to?
I guess that means you do agree that those are fine Christian values. I can accept that answer.
The missiles were sold to Ukraine. The Ukrainians sold them onto Iraq via Syria. How is Putin supposed to know where the missiles are going to end up? A lot of arms manufacturers, without the knowledge of their governments, supplied arms to other third parties. On the grey and black arms markets lots of weapons and equipment ended up in Iraq via this means. Western ammunition ended up in Iraq courtesy of the Jordainians. The arms market is exceptionally difficult to control. How did the North Koreans get their hands on US helicopters which made it into their armed forces? Why is the US, UK and the west still supplying arms to Arab and Muslim nations that one day could be used against US and Coalition forces if their nations go the way of Iran? If the Russians were airlifting huge quantities of arms or shipping them into Iraq then we could all start wailing and gnashing, but this was not the case. Dodgy individuals and black markets and arms sales to third parties produced arms to Iraqs - not direct government to government signed deals. Think Iran Contra and how the Iranians got spare parts for their F-14s and supplies of Hawk missiles during the 1980s!
Putin is not going to eliminate democracy entirely, but he is going to stack the deck. There is still a free press, in particular - Russian newspapers are all over the map in terms of quality, but at least it's not like it was in the days of Pravda.
I don't think Putin was being so much a friend to France and Germany, as he was trying to sell the idea that Russia is Arabist in its approach to the Middle East. He was securing customers and diplomatic points by doing so.
But then again, if there is a strong reaction against Islam in Russia, he will turn on a dime to accomodate it. He's definitely no fool.
Regards, Ivan
I'd recommend you read what Bill Gertz is reporting, it will answer that and many other questions.
Which leave Russia with only an illusion of democracy.
"There is still a free press, in particular - Russian newspapers are all over the map in terms of quality, but at least it's not like it was in the days of Pravda."
Read Putin's actions regarding the press and elections. Yes, there will be a free press, it just won't be free to cover elections, the affiliations or history of candidates, fraud, etc.
Putin isn't a fool, as he proved in his KGB and Stazi days. He is cunning and dangerous.
Ouch, to be able to buy weapons, first you got to be able to afford them. And guess who supplies that? There is always someone else to blame for everything.
Come on, it is NOT black and white!
I laugh that Vladdy Putin is some Stalin like authoritarian.
Let's remember, the Cali cocaine cartel, through a Russian/Tel Aviv/Miami nightclub impresario, in 1995 came within an eyelash of buying a Russian submarine right off the Barents Sea dock! LOL
Lesson: Too many "independent contractors" in that country.
We've got Cold Warriors here with longstanding beefs.
So YOU believe it's alright to provide nuclear technology to the islamic nation of Iran, a rogue state openly threatening a Christian nation?
So YOU believe it's alright to violate international agreement and illegal sell advances weapons to a nation under sanctions...that Russia publicly agreed to?
I accept your acknowledgement that Putin is above Christian values.
It's very black and white to our troops who are being maimed and killed with weapons that Putin illegally sold to Iraq, despite their own signature on the embargo.
It's very black and white that Iran, who is currently threatening to attack America, owes their nuclear program to Putin.
It is very black and white that Putin gave North Korea the ability to launch missiles that can hit Japan and possibly some of our own western cities.
It is black and white that Putin is providing China with the military ability to take Taiwan.
I don't see the grey areas there.
Gertz gets his information mixed up and totally wrong. He was bumping his gums in the last couple of weeks that France was government to government supplying factory fresh Roland SAMs before Iraqi Freedom commenced. As a serving Coalition member this was the biggest piece of BS ever written. All the Rolands found were early variants no longer produced and all delivered and in service with the Iraqis during the 1980s. None, repeat none, were Roland 3s or newly delivered from France. The missiles had been, like many other in their arsenal, refurbished by the Iraqi's themselves. The Iraqis were skilled at reburshing missiles and even converted some of their SA-6s with seeker heads from AA-8s in a bid to challenge Coalition control of the No Fly Zones.
I'll stick with Gertz. Even Rumsfeld seems to find his book extremely interesting.
The Stalinist system worked while its strategic posture was rational. What destroyed it was the insane expansionism of the Brezhnev era. Building a powerful blue water navy AND a massive expansion of land forces AND expensive proxy states in the third world AND a very expensive shift from light, relatively low tech fighters like the Mig-21 and Mig-23 to much more expensive fighters competitive with the F-16 and F-15 like the Mig-29, Mig-31, and Su-27/30.
So the Soviet Union, in effect, can be restored on a smaller scale including the Slavic parts of Mother Russia. Not trying to be a global superpower.
The Russian intelligentsia are mad over Putin's moves but the man in the street is not. The man in the street sees the Yeltsin era as a kind of Weimar, a nightmare time of squalor, depravity and national humiliation. He has no interest in fighting for the oligarchs. There is indeed, something in the Russian national character that enjoys seeing the high and mighty brought low, be they boyars, kulaks, Old Bolsheviks, or oligarchs.
That's insane.
You need to find a way to emotionally divest Putin from the independently powerful mobsters and disengaged apparatchniks Putin is trying to control.
To add to Germany's situation, through reunification they inherited half a nation that had grown up under Soviet domination, and a lot of politic ans of the "East" Germany persuasion. Most worrisome, just like in Russia, nationalism is on the rise. Last month two thousand Nazis marched past Rudolph Hess's grave. In Germany they are currently making a movie that portrays Hitler in a good light.
Combine that with the empire Putin desires and people should be cautious.
Well, you seem to be very upset right now. Maybe, one day, we could go back in history and look how it all went by.
However, there is a song you might recall from that cartoon(?): "Blame Canada."
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