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Washington Times columnist: "Iraq's bridge too far"
Washington Times/UPI ^ | Sept 16, 04 | Arnaud de Borchgrave

Posted on 09/16/2004 11:50:30 PM PDT by churchillbuff

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To: Stepan12
His basic attitudes are those of the continental nobility. That is to say, those of the ancien regime transmogrified into eurosocialistic elitists, including the casting couch mentality and contempt for mere bourgeois Americanos.

However he is right on about the Saudi princes and the Wahabbi and his intelligence on the Middle East is excellent. He would like to be American but cannot abide the sans culotte

21 posted on 09/17/2004 12:59:10 AM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: churchillbuff

Dopes like you have no idea how disastrous it will be if we cut and run from Iraq. Nor do you care because you are as emotional as a woman with PMS. Why don't get the heck out of here and post your garbage at DU? You will get a great reception over there.


22 posted on 09/17/2004 12:59:26 AM PDT by dennisw (There)
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To: dennisw

It's times like this that a little history can be helpful. If you look at the casualty rates from WW2 we suffered fewer losses in the years 41 through 43 when we were losing the war, but suffered considerably heavier casualties in 44 - 45 when we were clearly winning. The same can be said for previous conflicts.

We've made mistakes, like not killing Sadr and reducing Falluja, which would have made the present situation a little brighter. I also think the elections coming up here, in Afghanistan and Iraq are the main driving force behind these attacks.

Since no major offensive is likely before the November elections we will have to wait. But it's high time we start getting a lot more aggressive - take out Falluja once and for all. And if the new Iraq leadership is against that then we need to tell them we can begin the withdrawl of all coalition forces from Iraq in 48 hours and wish them good luck.

We also need to begin supporting groups inside Iran and Syria so the governments there are too busy trying to hold power than cause troubles in Iraq. Go on the offensive.


23 posted on 09/17/2004 1:34:38 AM PDT by DHerion
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To: churchillbuff
Off the record conversations with intelligence chiefs in five major European countries -- each with multiple assets in Iraq -- showed remarkable agreement on these points:

European group-think. They all agree? Wow. I'm stunned.
24 posted on 09/17/2004 3:01:38 AM PDT by self_evident
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To: churchillbuff
To cope with the insurgency, the United States requires 10 times the rebel strength -- or some 200,000 as a bare minimum.

Formulas, formulas. These people would also tell you that you need 4 times the opposition troop number to launch a ground offensive.
25 posted on 09/17/2004 3:05:08 AM PDT by self_evident
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To: DHerion
take out Falluja once and for all.

I don't follow. Falluja is a city. One part of it was occupied by Sadr's militia at one time, but not now. Do you mean take out Sadr once and for all?
26 posted on 09/17/2004 3:07:23 AM PDT by self_evident
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To: churchillbuff
This is not up to de Borchgrave's usual standards. The strategy mapped out by these Euro intel chiefs appears to be filled with assumptions and entirely unrealistic goals, such as eliminating the underlying causes of terrorism. If we don't find effective ways to fight terror tactics, then by the time the world has reformed the Pakistani and Saudi schools a western nation will be nuked with an Islamic bomb. Their Eurospeak is filled with hypocrisy about solving underlying causes of terror, while the Europeans openly looted the Iraqi Oil for Food program. Then there is this absurd statement from the brilliant Euro intel chiefs:

"The 'war on terror' is a misnomer that is tantamount to rhetorical disinformation. One can no more fight terrorism than one could declare war on Hitler's Panzers in World War II or Dreadnoughts in World War I. Terrorism is a weapons system that has been used time and again for the last 5,000 years. The root causes are the problem, not the weapon."

Tell THAT to the Israelis. They cannot solve the root causes of Islamic terror, and where would they be today if they had not developed tactics for fighting a war against terrorists. This is a poor article, filled with the usual European hypocrisy and geopolitical folly. And nobody really knows how many hard-core terrorists are in Iraq. They slip in and out of that country with the shifts in the wind. If we take away their incentive for being there and their support system, they'll go home and terorrize their local police.

27 posted on 09/17/2004 3:32:41 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: churchillbuff
To cope with the insurgency, the United States requires 10 times the rebel strength -- or some 200,000 as a bare minimum

We have begun to focus on kill ratios, a sure sign of impending disaster.

Victory is achieved only after the enemy's will to resist is broken.

28 posted on 09/17/2004 3:34:02 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: america-rules
Ok, So do we give up or stand and kick ass ?

Well, kick ass, of course-but a good old-fashioned ass kicking will not, I fear, be sufficient.

29 posted on 09/17/2004 3:35:26 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: Jim Robinson
I'm positive this is an objective analysis.

Well, God bless you, Mr. Robinson for everything you have done for this blessed land-but if you mean that Iraq policy will not need revision after the soon-to-be-forgotten john kerry is consigned to history, I fear that you are wrong.

30 posted on 09/17/2004 3:37:40 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: Jim Noble
"Victory is achieved only after the enemy's will to resist is broken."

That's right. No nation wins a war merely by holding territory or inflicting casualities on their enemey. You don't win until your enemy stops fighting. We have to focus on breaking their will and eliminating the incentives to continue fighting. I'm expecting some hard fighting in November after Dubya is re-elected with a pause at the Thanksgiving holdiday, then another offensive ending in mid-December. We're in crunch time now and we must improve the security situation in Iraq. I wouldn't be surpised if we launch some raids just over the borders into Iran and Syria--the kind of Special Forces raids than never officially happen (and may in fact not be officially occurring now).

31 posted on 09/17/2004 3:40:22 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: DHerion
What I don't understand is why its taking so long to build up a decent Iraqi security force. We trained, equipped and fielded a military of fifteen plus million in about 4-5 years in World War 2

Made up of Americans who treasured liberty and our beloved homeland.

I do not believe, and I never have believed, that a population sufficiently virtuous to win and then defend freedom exists in the former Ottoman provinces of Mosul, Mesopotamia, and Basrah which are now together commonly called "Iraq".

The reason we cannot build up a decent Iraqi security force is because there are no such people as "Iraqis".

32 posted on 09/17/2004 3:42:59 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: Jim Noble

Nonetheless, every single time I see the term "neo-conservative" used by the press, there is always a definite liberal, anti-Republican, or anti-Bush bias in the article. This article is no exception, because it quotes the anti-Bush European hypocrites.


33 posted on 09/17/2004 3:43:04 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: carl in alaska
Nonetheless, every single time I see the term "neo-conservative" used by the press, there is always a definite liberal, anti-Republican, or anti-Bush bias in the article

Of course there is, and believe me, I am not carrying water for any euroscum.

But even a broken clock is right twice a day, and if we cannot learn from our enemies when they accidently speak the truth, we are not fit to govern ourselves.

34 posted on 09/17/2004 3:46:38 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: MadIvan; Dundee

(((( Ping ))))


35 posted on 09/17/2004 3:47:11 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: carl in alaska
And, by the way, it's 6:46AM here in NH.

I hope you're not really in Alaska?

36 posted on 09/17/2004 3:47:30 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Hillary becomes the RAT candidate on October 9. You saw it here first.)
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To: coconutt2000

I think we're going to crush a lot of these insurgents just after the election. No doubt the Pentagon is preparing plans for this operation right now. We're just training our guys, building up our supplies, and keeping the casualties down until the election. This offensive will be fast, efficient, and it won't be pretty.


37 posted on 09/17/2004 3:52:55 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: Jim Noble

Yes, it's 2:55 AM here. I'm up very late tonight. It's about time to call it a day.


38 posted on 09/17/2004 3:55:05 AM PDT by carl in alaska (Throw deep........you're already in the fourth quarter.)
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To: churchillbuff

I am literally amazed at the attitudes and responses of many Freepers on this subject. They remind me of the koolaid drinkers over at DU, blindly swallowing anything that "our side" has for foreign policy, and inviting all dissemblers to head for the exits.

Look, I was doing the conservative thing when most of the folks here were in diapers or not yet a gleam in their father's eye.

We need to face up to the fact that this is a bad war, not because we removed Sadaam, but because we have NO damn idea what we are supposed to do now that our kick ass military has WON the war. We are engaged in trying to impose a political structure based on independence, personal integrity, freedom, and other virtues on a culture of moon god worshiping, lying, cheating, fatalistic goat rapers. The west has to get it through our skulls that as much as muslims love the idea of freedom and prosperity, they hate the west even more, because we are infidels.

President Bush is a GOOD man. He believes that the Arab/Muslim world will respond to the values above because (though he won't say this in public) they are made in the image of God. He believes that freedom is branded into the souls of men by their creator. On that I agree with him. He is also privy to MUCH more knowledge of the world than I, but he is also naive in one huge aspect. Our western democracies and democratic republics were forged in the furnace of a religious conviction that emphasized individual freedoms, courage, personal responsibility, integrity, and a fear of centralization of power. THE MUSLIM WORLD SHARES NO SUCH WORLDVIEW. It is folly to attempt to appeal to the "better angels of our nature," to a whole nation, while they vehemently reject the platform that gives those better angels a venue to operate.

The sad alternative seems to be to declare victory, pull out, and watch as Iraq descends to chaos. Unfortunately, that is going to happen anyway (so I believe), whether we stay or not. The only difference is the number of body bags we bring out before that happens, and how disillusioned our soldiers are when they come back.

They fought like MEN. They are heroes all and there are none better. Get them OUT of that rat's nest while they can still be (rightly) proud of what they have done, removed a brutal tyrant and potential nuke thrower and given Iraq a CHANCE to determine its own destiny. What they do with that chance should be their concern, not ours.


39 posted on 09/17/2004 4:08:57 AM PDT by chronic_loser (Yeah? so what do I know?)
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To: Jim Noble

BINGO!!!! We have a winner.

The best alternative to the civil war which is surely coming in Iraq would be to divide the country up FOR them. However, then we get to the 20 thousand dollar question of "who gets the oil fields?" Also, the turks would go apoplectic if we put an independent Kurdish nation on their border. They just finished a 20 year civil war to suppress Kurdish separtists inside their own borders.

It is a mess.


40 posted on 09/17/2004 4:16:01 AM PDT by chronic_loser (Yeah? so what do I know?)
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