Posted on 09/16/2004 1:25:43 PM PDT by hawkaw
Kerry was awarded the medals. The released records prove it. The Silver Star was approved by Hyland, CINCPAC. I am positive Zumwalt, COMNAVSFOR Vietnam was the final approving authority for the Bronze Star. I believe he got replacement medals and administrative procedures required that the Secretary of the Navy sign off on them.
I wouldn't be too sure of that!
And don't call me Shirley!
he tossed his medals/ribbons whatever away on the mall.
he didn't throw the paperwork.
He could have gone to any aafes or NEX clothing store and BOUGHT new medals/ribbons.
Why woud he have to do new paperwork????
I presume you are quoting the current SECNAVINST 1650.1G Paragraph 113. What you would need to find is the delegation of approval authority for awards at the time, not today.
Here is my take on what happened:
Did he or didn't he? After reviewing Kerry's service records, as released by him, I find it hard to believe the media have not picked up on the John Lehman connection. It should set off all kinds of alarm bells, especially considering the recent flap over whether he threw his medals away or not.
A very curious question arises over Kerry's multiple Silver (3) and Bronze (2) star citations. Two of the five were signed by John Lehman who was Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan Administration 5 Feb 1981 - 10 Apr 1987. There are three Silver Star citations supplied by Kerry. One was signed by ADM Zumwalt, one by ADM Hyland, and one by Secretary Lehman. The Bronze Star citations were signed by Zumwalt and Lehman. Specifically,
Zumwalt: ADM Zumwalt served as Commander, US Naval Forces Vietnam from Sep 1968-May 1970. The Silver Star citation is more than likely the original citation taken from the award submission. Normally, as part of the nomination form, the nominator must provide a synopsis of the award (citation) that can fit on a single page suitable for framing with the certificate. Zumwalt's citation covered two pages. I suspect that Zumwalt forwarded the award to CINCPAC, ADM Hyland, for the final signature, including the citation. It is worth noting that the requirement to go to CINCPAC applied only to the Silver Star, hence only the Zumwalt and Lehman citations for the Bronze Star, i.e., Zumwalt as the final approving authority and Lehman for the replacement/reissue.
Hyland: CINCPAC probably edited the Zumwalt Silver Star citation to make it fit on to one page and to clean it up a bit to fit the existing format. I do find it odd that Zumwalt's citation is on letterhead paper. Usually the suggested citation language is submitted on the award recommendation form itself. ADM Hyland was CINCPAC 30 Nov 1967 - 05 Dec 1970
Lehman: Except for the last sentence, the Silver Star citation is the same as Hyland's. What makes this curious is that Secretary Lehman signed the citation in June 1985. Kerry served in Vietnam from November 1968 to April 1969. I doubt, in any event, that the final approval authority for Silver Stars had to go to SECNAV for approval. We also have photographic evidence that Kerry had the Silver Star medal pinned on in 1969. Kerry also acknowledges that he received them. My take is that Kerry requested replacement medals and due to the fact that Kerry was no longer an active duty service member, administrative requirements mandated that SECNAV's office had to approve the issue of the replacements once it was verified from official records that Kerry had actually earned them. It is odd that they could not have just given Kerry copies of the original citations and I am at a loss for the reason to change the last sentence of the Silver Star citation, even if it is boilerplate language. Why not go with the original like what was done for the Bronze Star?
The bottom line is that Kerry probably did throw away his medals and then requested replacements in the 1980s. Kerry needs to release all of his military records including the nomination forms, which will give us the chronology and the approval chain of command. Kerry's reaction on Good Morning America fits his MO. He wants it both ways. When he discovered that throwing away your medals was politically a negative, he came up with the story about his ribbons and someone else's medals. Kerry realized that he couldn't walk away from the story entirely, especially since he has the medals displayed prominently in his office. However, the fly in the ointment is that we now have the citations, released by him, signed by Lehman. If he indeed requested replacement medals, he has a real problem, i.e., he was telling the truth initially, lied in the 80s, and is lying now.
Kerry's campaign spokesman has stated recently that Kerry requested replacement citations (Silver and Bronze Stars) in 1986 (actually it was 1985) because Kerry lost the originals. I find that hard to believe given Kerry's penchant for keeping copies of everything he has ever written or received. It also begs the question as to why Lehman needed to sign replacement citations when the Navy could have made duplicates of the ones in Kerry's official file
Silver Star
According to John O'Neill, Unfit for Command (pp.80-81), Kerry was awarded the medal "two days after the incident with no review." Thus, Kerry received the medal on March 2, 1969. This is corroborated by Mrs. Droz whose husband was one of the three PCF OIC's that day along with Kerry and Rood. She cites a March 6 letter from her husband, who wrote. " I had quite a morning... Admiral [Elmo] Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces Vietnam, flew to An Thoi from Saigon ... for a special awards presentation. To make a somewhat long story short, PCF's 23, 94 and 43 conducted an operation February 28th which we pulled off rather spectacularly. Anyway, for my part, I was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with Combat 'V.' I don't mean to blow my own horn, but I really am pleased with the award, and it is a rather significant medal. I'll bring the citation with me to Hawaii." It is possible that the Hyland citation was not available at the presentation of the medal on March 2, 1969, which may explain why Zumwalt's citation is on letterhead paper.
I am fairly certain that Zumwalt could not be the final approving authority for the Silver Star, hence the Hyland citation. Hyland's citation was the only official citation. As I explained, the nominator (Zumwalt) can suggest the language for the citation to the final approving authority (Hyland). There is a block on the form to do that. I suspect that Hyland's office edited the language to make it fit on one page and to comply with existing guidelines. As I indicated, the medal was awarded in a hurry without the usual vetting process. It could be that Zumwalt's citation came from the after action report written by Kerry and was created for the presentation ceremony on March 2.
Technically, there is only one official citation for the Silver Star, the one signed by ADM Hyland the final approving authority. I suspect the Zumwalt citation on letterhead paper was put together quickly to make a hurried presentation of the medal. The Hyland citation came later, but not that much later. The Silver Star citation signed by Lehman is the same as the Hyland citation except for the last sentence, which is essentially boilerplate language. I agree there are some serious questions as to why Kerry was just not issued a certified copy of the Hyland citation. The Bronze Star citation signed by Lehman is exactly the same as the Zumwalt citation. To me, the most important question is whether replacement medals were issued. If so, Kerry would be destroyed as a Presidential candidate. Several months ago on Good Morning America, he stated categorically that he did not throw his medals away--just ribbons. He allowed that his statement in 1971 that he did throw away his medals might be misconstrued since "medals and ribbons are interchangeable."
lots of detail there,
but it still begs the question,
why does he ask for more paperwork?
If he just wanted to replace medals/ribbons thrown over the fence at the protest, why not just go to any aafes or NEX clothing store and BUY new medals/ribbons?
the actual physical replacement of the medals/ribbons would be an easy thing, you don't need to go to the pentagon for that.
and copies of the original citations would be available in his service record as you note.
why does he even need to get new citations then?
and, no one has provided informaiton on whether or not Bush has signed the form 180.
the libs at work keep saying he has not, and I cannot find any information that syas he has--except people that say "I think I read that somewhere."
as I said above, all I can find on the 'net from an unbiased source (washington times) is this from august 18, 2004:
"At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were allowed to look at his medical records as well."
has bush signed the form 180 or not?
I'm listening to Garrison, who is ripping Kerry and Rather.
http://www.wibc.com/streaming/streamingpage.aspx
Is there a link to Ollie and Hannity?
I finally found it the link. Thanks.
At the risk of engaging in some pop psychology, Kerry's ego would not allow him to get replicas of his medals. In his mind, he earned and deserved them. He did this in 1985 after he had been elected to the Senate the first time. He was sitting on top of the world. It is interesting that the certificates were signed in June 1985, so he must have started the process almost immediately after he took office in January 1985. I guess he wanted to decorate his office quickly, which he did based on reports that visitors have seen the medals displayed prominently in his office.
There have been reports from sources like Hannity that Bush signed a 180 or issued an executive-type order that all his records be released, yet we read that AP is going through the courts to have them all released based on a FOIA request. I heard Tom Lipscomb say on the Malzberg radio show that Bush did not/not sign an SF 180. If he hasn't, he should.
agreed,
bush should sign the form 180 also,
but I think he should wait to do this until the first debate, then he could sign his and ask kerry to sign one too...
I'm in. Needs mo' freepin'.
I have no idea, but it is a moot point. The Navy's response to Judicial Watch is that the awards were approved by those who had the authority to do so.
Navy finds no improprieties in awarding of Kerry’s medals
The Associated Press
September 18th, 2004
WASHINGTON -- The Navy’s chief investigator concluded Friday that procedures were followed properly in the approval of Sen. John Kerry’s Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according to an internal Navy memo.
Vice Adm. R.A. Route, the Navy inspector general, conducted the review of Kerry’s Vietnam-era military service awards at the request of Judicial Watch, a public interest group. The group has also asked for the release of records documenting the Democratic presidential candidate’s military service.
Judicial Watch had requested in August that the Navy open an investigation of the matter, but Route said in an internal memo obtained by The Associated Press that he saw no reason for a full-scale probe.
"Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.
"In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards."
Some veterans have challenged Kerry’s version of the circumstances surrounding the incident that led to his Silver Star award for battlefield heroism, as well as his three Purple Heart medals.
Judicial Watch also asked the Navy inspector general to investigate Kerry’s anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam and left active duty.
The group’s president, Tom Fitton, called Route’s review a "whitewash" and said Judicial Watch would "appeal as appropriate."
"The Navy IG obviously is afraid of the political ramifications of a thorough investigation into a presidential candidate’s service record," Fitton said in a statement.
Sorry to be so late in posting, but this is an incredibly stupid claim.
Just because the Navy can't release records to the public doesn't mean they haven't released them to Kerry and that Kerry has not released them himself.
Think about it.
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