Posted on 09/14/2004 9:47:41 AM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
Putin Pong
Sorry. The hand was quicker than the eye..............
No, but you must love them because all you're doing is being Putin's useful idiot.
You are in here claiming that the man who is ending democratic elections in Russia is democratic, and supporting the man who is reverting the system of government back to the old Soviet-style central dictatorship.
If Hillary Clinton gets 70% of the support of the people, you would conceede to her that it was perfectly fine to suspend elections, that she could appoint governors and Senators?
You are right, I am familiar with appointed governors from latin america. It has been fairly common. It guarantees that local government answers to the ruling party rather than the locals. The dispensation of tax revenues from the center rather than local governments having their own tax base is also common, and has the same effect, the locals have almost no voice in their local government, even where they do elect them directly. The result is that local problems have to become national problems before anyone pays attention; it is a guarantee for instability.
But in explaining that to latin americans they always tell me that what works in rich countries (federalism) won't work in corrupt, poor ones... And maybe they are right, what do I know?
I tend, as I have said, to give Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I know that the road to good government does not always follow a straight line, it zigs and zags sometimes. Chile had to go through a Pinochet to get to stable democracy. Maybe Putin is Russia's Pinochet. Maybe his zigs will be followed by a zag. Or maybe we are seeing the beginning of one long zig. If Putin wants to declare war on the mafia and the muslim killers, more power to him. If he is merely consolidating power in order to build a free Russia, then history will absolve him.
But the spotlight is on him, and even his friends are watching, to see if Putin is friend or foe. I hope you are right and Luis is wrong.
He outta check with Fidel...he's got 45 years worth of practice in consolidating power in order to build a free Cuba; history will acknowledge him as the world's longest running dictator.
I do not think that you understand what Soviet system was about. What Putin is doing is establishing a strong presidential system, not so different that De Gaulle had in mind. It is well suited for Russia.
The decentralised structures like republics, autonomous regions etc ... with intentionally gerrymandered borders were created by the SOVIETS! It was balanced by the totalitarian unified party and so it was not leading to the chaos.
Same utopian decentralised social engineering was tried in Yugoslavia and ended in the civil war when Tito was gone. In case of Soviet Union it led to the peaceful breakup of the Union according to the Soviet internal borders what was a miracle.
Resulting republics have significant minorities (the largest being Russians in the Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Estonia) but consensus was to keep the borders intact. Each resulting state had to undergo some form of uniformization and centralisation with Russia being the last to do it.
The reason Putin is so popular is that Russians learned their lesson from the time of Yeltsin rule - their country experienced the rule of mobsters cooperating with foreign corporations, dramatic fall in standard of living expressing itself in unprecedented shortening of life expectancy and constant predations by the criminal/tribal gangs.
Russia is simply too big, too complex and too cold country to become a banana republic. Strong central government is what the doctors prescribed. Do not wish for chaos and turmoil in Russia as nothing good would come from it.
Not all rich countries had federal system - France is quite centralised. And there are poor countries with federal system like Brazil and India. United States federal model cannot and should not be made mandatory for the whole world. Different countries had different needs and refining of the American model through the Civil War is very expensive.
Russia is very different from Cuba and from Latin America in general. Maybe you should travel a little bit more?
Franco in Spain prepared the people to have a democracy but he was a dictator. You're right -- it doesn't seem like many democracies spring up on their own like here in the USA.
So, you think that traveling more into countries whose basic systems of government are more oppresive, and not as free as ours would convince me that our system of government is not the best system of government?
I don't think so.
Your argument flies at the very face of everything that this nation was Founded on, and still thrives on; that the best government is one by the people.
Sorry, no takers.
Russia, before democratization was no different than Cuba, now they're going to be no different than Cuba again...and you're arguing that this is a good thing.
That dog don't hunt.
Russia is very different from Cuba, same way as Japan is very different from Ireland. Travel more.
I don't need to travel more, I know where you're coming from.
And that "travel more" crap is just that...crap.
I also know where you are coming from. So what?
Luis,Most of these people don't care about what is going on if things aren’t looking so bright, while a very small few here may even wish for the return of communism because they are silently like them. As for the rest, they want to shop, have fun, party, and see nothing but good times from now till they no longer are with us. Anything, and I mean anything that gets in the way of this view will be put down at all costs despite what the facts are. They will ignore those facts, not answer them, come back at you with tripe little comments like:
that their economy is doing so well despite that fact that political structures gives the freedom for this, which ironically is now being sovietized, but I guess I am being negative(another failure of an argument on their part since it does not prove whether something is factual or not) for pointing out reality; or another favorite of theirs is ‘where you there’ or ‘ever visited’, implying then you have no right to say anything even when the news accounts are as plain as day(but this argument falls to the ground as it has nothing to do with the facts as they are here, they have only a feel good mentality that justifies putting some one down for bring a little sobering reality back into their life). Then there was one about how favorable the people of Russia have of the U.S. but as you pointed out relations are not so good. The people have about a 9% favorable rating of us, not a surprise given all the propaganda feed to them over the last 5 years, not to mention life is still hard over there. Yes it is true that many Russians had a high rating of us during the cold war, so what? It didn’t stop the government that enslaved them from doing rotten things. It won’t stop this government from doing rotten things except this time will have the full backing of the people(that scares me), well at least until they realize they have been had which could take a while.
All of their arguments are false unless they are willing to argue the facts and show that the worst is not transpiring before our eyes. But as anyone with an open eye, forget and open mind at this point, can see the facts speak for themselves. The reality doesn’t get anymore blunt than this, well..... maybe with the exception of having all out war. Of course if we wake up in time we might avoid that, but with people like the ones you have been arguing with I have little hope as they seem to be the norm today. However that doesn’t mean anyone should stop trying to point out the truth, God only knows, we need it now more than ever.
DarkWaters
 |
Reality gives everyone plenty of facts to make sense out of. There are always facts enough going around to support any view. With three thousand dead in New York, and three hundred kids dead is Russia, those two facts alone can support the argument we have all out war. And when you look at how badly politicians manage hot warfare, I don't think it's clear "democracy" is the best government for war. |
Athens invented democracy only after a stable long term tyranny (which did not mean what it means now) created stable institutions and a stabel middle class.
Is not democractic mob rule (and in Russia mob rule is just that sometimes too) to be shuned in favor of republicanisim?
You forgot the 40,000 kids killed by Russia in Chechnya?
The loudest facts are the ones everyone hides from the light of day.
American Republic grew out of the centuries of British Monarchy (including one and half century of colonial rule). Even after USA became independent the bloody Civil War was necessary to strengthen and clarify the role of central government. Russia and the world cannot afford such Civil War.
Pray to God, that Putin succeeds like De Gaulle did when he created the Fifth Republic or General Franco at the end of his life when he established strong national government were in which the King is the arbiter and overseer.
We do not need another Yugoslavia on two continents!
What about 200,000 Bosnian Muslims and 200,000 Albanian Muslims killed by the demonic Serbs and 100,000 Muslim women raped in the Serbian death camps? Why the "judges" in Hague cannot find any evidence?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.