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An unwelcome mat for free speech
Yahoo! News ^ | August 18, 2004 | Tony Mauro

Posted on 08/19/2004 8:57:41 AM PDT by MikeJ75

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Have you ever voted for a particular candidate because of the number of signs in people's yards?
1 posted on 08/19/2004 8:57:41 AM PDT by MikeJ75
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To: MikeJ75

File this story under: "Somehow forced to consent to the voluntary rules"


2 posted on 08/19/2004 9:00:50 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: MikeJ75
But the growing pervasiveness of these homeowner associations leaves people with little choice but to sign their rights away if they want to buy a new place to live.

Boo hoo. They knew what they were getting into when they voluntary signed the papers. They could have chosen to live somewhere else.

Why people voluntarily choose to cede even more control over their daily lives to other people is completely beyond me.

3 posted on 08/19/2004 9:07:20 AM PDT by gdani
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To: MikeJ75

If homeowner associations are going to have the powers of governments, their powers must be restricted the same as governments are.


4 posted on 08/19/2004 9:10:05 AM PDT by omega4412
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To: omega4412

"If homeowner associations are going to have the powers of governments, their powers must be restricted the same as governments are."

Not really. Every homeowner in a place that has an association signs a contract with the association as a condition of living there. It's one of those things that is revealed when you decide whether or not to buy the property or rent it.

Not like government at all. Don't like the rules? Don't buy the property.

Personally, I hate homeowner's associations. That's why I would never, ever, purchase any property that was tied to one.

If you do, however, then you voluntarily agreed to the terms. Tough nuts.


5 posted on 08/19/2004 9:28:07 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MikeJ75

I will eat my own size 11s before I live in a condo again.

Yes we knew the basics of the condo association and such, and were aware of needing permisison to plant anything, hang anything, or otherwise make changes.

But the inconsistency of the Assoc enforcement of the rules is what made life so infuriating sometimes.

Best to avoid it altogether in the future. Lesson learned.


6 posted on 08/19/2004 9:41:44 AM PDT by Gefreiter ("Flee...into the peace and safety of a new dark age." HP Lovecraft)
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To: Cultural Jihad
"Somehow forced to consent to the voluntary rules"

You would be absolutely right, except...

"municipalities from Las Vegas to Hilton Head, S.C., are virtually requiring that any new multi-unit housing be governed by associations."

7 posted on 08/19/2004 9:49:47 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: gdani

The great First Amendment champion Justice Hugo Black wrote that it was irrelevant that Chickasaw, Ala., the town involved in the case, was owned by a shipbuilding company. Private ownership of the streets and sidewalks, he said, "is not sufficient to justify the state's permitting a corporation to govern a community of citizens so as to restrict their fundamental liberties."


Just in case you missed that part


8 posted on 08/19/2004 9:53:44 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (Goodnight Chesty, wherever you may be.)
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To: MikeJ75
But there is a regrettable price to pay - a diminution of free-speech rights.

Not to mention hefty monthly maintenance fees.

9 posted on 08/19/2004 9:57:55 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Uday is DU in Pig Latin)
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To: freeeee
Are these municipalities ruled by some conquering foreign army which executes those hapless, helpless and hopeless serfs who try to vote in the imperial elections?
10 posted on 08/19/2004 9:59:10 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: MikeJ75
"What can be done to expand, not contract, free speech in privatized communities? Residents should become more aggressive in forcing their associations, or the courts, to examine whether sign restrictions really serve a purpose."

If this was really a problem then the market would rectify it. If the ability to have signs in the yard becomes important enough that people will pay for it, then land developers will devote more of their activities to building additions which don't have such restrictive covenants. If there is a need or desire for something in the market, the market will move to fill that need. Ain't capitalism great!

11 posted on 08/19/2004 10:04:00 AM PDT by joebuck
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To: Leatherneck_MT
Just in case you missed that part

No, it wasn't missed.

But you may have missed where the restrictions in Chickasaw applied to the entire town. It's obviously a different situation when an entire town is privately owned.

Unless you can find any federal court decisions that strike down the ability of homeowners associations to restrict speech using Chickasaw as precedent.

12 posted on 08/19/2004 10:04:13 AM PDT by gdani
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To: Cultural Jihad
Are these municipalities ruled by some conquering foreign army

No, they're ruled by their state constitutions.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA ARTICLE I Sec. 2. The General Assembly shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble and petition the government or any department thereof for a redress of grievances.

So SC can't directly ban signs on lawns. Far from satisfied with that restriction on their power, they mandate HOA's be established to do their bidding for them.

A de-facto infringement on free speech is the result. What a neat little loophole. Then again, slimy underhanded tactics are SOP to freedom hating control freaks.

13 posted on 08/19/2004 10:06:34 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: joebuck
Ain't capitalism great!

"municipalities from Las Vegas to Hilton Head, S.C., are virtually requiring that any new multi-unit housing be governed by associations."

That's not capitalism. That's fascism.

14 posted on 08/19/2004 10:08:05 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: freeeee
So SC can't directly ban signs on lawns. Far from satisfied with that restriction on their power, they mandate HOA's be established to do their bidding for them.

For clarification, the article used the municipality of Hilton Head as an example, not the entire state of South Carolina.

And where is the evidence (i.e. legislative history) that suggests the reason for the Hilton Head law is to restrict free speech rights?

15 posted on 08/19/2004 10:12:52 AM PDT by gdani
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To: gdani
And where is the evidence (i.e. legislative history) that suggests the reason for the Hilton Head law is to restrict free speech rights?

Their intention is irrelevent. The result is what matters.

16 posted on 08/19/2004 10:14:39 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: freeeee

Supposedly an extremist would claim yelling "Fire!" in a crowded non-burning theater of psychics is a free speech right, too.


17 posted on 08/19/2004 10:15:38 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
Supposedly an extremist would claim yelling "Fire!" in a crowded non-burning theater of psychics is a free speech right, too.

Yelling fire in a crowded theatre =! a political sign on a lawn.

Got any other strawmen to whip?

18 posted on 08/19/2004 10:18:01 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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To: freeeee
Their intention is irrelevent. The result is what matters.

The intention is absolutely relevant.

You don't think a federal judge would see a difference in a city passing such a law for the sole purpose of restricting speech versus passing a law that has, as a side effect, restricting speech?

19 posted on 08/19/2004 10:22:14 AM PDT by gdani
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To: gdani
The intention is absolutely relevant.

"Honest guys, we didn't mean to infringe on free speech. Snicker snicker he he"

You don't think a federal judge would see a difference in a city passing such a law for the sole purpose of restricting speech versus passing a law that has, as a side effect, restricting speech?

After CFR was upheld, its safe to say federal judges are poor choices to consult on issues of free speech.

But I see your point in a way. It's unlikely they're mandating HOA's for the sole purpose of prohibiting lawn signs. Their motivations are likely as numerous as the number of restrictions on HOA covenents. They want dumbed down, bland and tightly controlled McNeighborhoods, the wishes of the market be damned. And if they don't have to bother with passing and defending a host of laws because HOA's will do it for them, all the better.

20 posted on 08/19/2004 10:29:35 AM PDT by freeeee ("Owning" property in the US just means you have one less landlord.)
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