Comments and thoughts appreciated.
1] newgeezer - implied that APT would be a hidden tax. Not true. In fact, Dr. Feige describes how we would all have taxpayer accounts (TPAs) that would keep track of our gross tax payouts.
4] sharktrager - opposes the APT tax because he to assumes it "would be virtually invisible" and would make us all complacent and ignorant of how much we are really paying.
Nothing could make us as complacent as we are now by withholding income against our will. With an APT, we decide whether to pay taxes or not by choosing whether to spend or save. In addition to TPSs I mentioned above, I would expect everyone to become quit picky about that single little APT tax much the way the economy is to the Federal Reserve interest rate. Voters would be empowered the way it was intended.
10] TopQuark - First, he argues that the number of transactions don't increase with wealth. The amount of tax collected would be the same regardless of how many transactions you make. I don't know about you, but with income taxes gone, I think I'd go buy a few more things.
Second, he asserts that an APT tax would reduce market liquidity, inhibit the free movement of capital and labor and stagnate the economy. But the APT tax would be dwarfed by impact costs and broker fees. If anything it would cut a lot of short term speculative trading and reduce volatility.
Thirdly, he wrongly assumes that the author doesn't take into account the elasticity of the market. Dr. Feige's static model proposes a 0.3% tax rate while his elastic model assumes a drastic 50% drop in transactions which would require a tax rate of just 0.6%.
13] watchin - asks if cash would be an easy form of tax exemption. In the proposal, it is estimated that cash changes hands an average of four times before returning to a bank. With the APT tax, it might increase to about eight times. So banks would simply charge a 4x tax on all cash withrdrawls and deposits to account for those intermediate transactions and discourage the use of cash in general.
17] sharktrager - Also think people would ignore it like a state sales tax. (See 1 & 4 above) He also thinks that we would all end up paying more. (See 10 above)
22] You Dirty Rats - Thinks an APT tax would drive transactions offshore. However, the proposal suggests that property protection laws be restricted from offshore tax shelters and that any currency coming from such foreign institution be treated as counterfeit.
26] SedVictaCatoni - Uses the transaction tax that was implemented in Brazil as an example. But, transaction taxes were never intended to be used in small developing economies. Plus the Brazilian government simply added it on top of all existing taxes as a new source of revenue.
29] arthurus - Thinks Congress would raise the APT tax on impulse and diminish the initial returns of abolishing the income tax system. If the APT tax were ever adopted, we would all be well aware of a phenomena call cascading. Cascading is when a tax is applied to the same thing more than once through the chain of production. This would happen with APT but not enough to be a problem for anyone. However, increasing the initial tax rate even slightly would first nibble on business revenue and then cascade into a noticeable increase in the prices of finished products. The rate increase might increase short term revenue for Congress but only at the expense of long term transactions. Any short term gain in revenue wouldn't make up for the long term loss. Any Congress that adopts the APT would also want to anchor the initial rate with something like a constitutional amendment so that all future congresses would be forced to conserve spending and grow with the economy.
30] sharktrager - Also believes that any Congress who would adopt the APT tax would then raise the rate to the demise of the economy. (See 29) He also makes an attempt to describe cascading but doesn't quite get the math right. Allow me to reenact his example:
|
|
Description |
Amount |
0.6% Tax |
Tax Paid |
| 1 |
Paycheck |
+$1,000.00 |
0.3% |
-$3.00 |
| 2 |
Deposit |
- |
- |
- |
| 3 |
ATM(Cash) |
-$20.00 |
**1.2% |
-$0.24 |
| 4 |
Target(Socks) |
-$15.00 |
0.3% |
-$0.05 |
|
|
|
$1,035.00 |
0.039% |
-$3.29 |
**(See 13 above)
The last couple of transactions were Target transactions so they don't count. With a 0.6% APT tax, you would only pay half (0.3%) on each transaction. First you get paid $1,000, presumable by check, and that's one transaction not two. You then withdraw $20 from the ATM, buy socks at Target ($15) and your ending balance would be $961.71. You executed $1,035 in taxable transactions and paid $3.29 in total taxes. Your average tax rate would actually be 0.329%- slightly more then 0.3%, not 3.6%! In fact, after spend the rest, your total tax rate would never exceed 0.6% (0.3% coming in then 0.3 again going out). It's that simple.
31] SAJ - Thinks that short term speculative traders are enormously valuable because they increase overall market liquidity. So, everyone would be adversely effected by the APT tax as it would increase trading costs enough to force a considerable fraction of those who practice day trading, arbitrage, conversions and reversals to pick up their marbles and go home.
However, he isn't taking into account the cumulative positive effect that the APT tax would have in reducing overall operating costs for everyone. The income tax burden alone is a greater factor of brokerage commissions and assorted floor and clearing charges than the APT tax would ever be. If they really wanted to preserve liquidity, they could reduce their fees and charges by the traders share of the APT tax and they would still come away with significantly increased overall revenue.
I totally agree with his argument about transfers of funds between accounts owned by the same entity. If I have a checking account, a savings account, a paypal account and a sharebuilder account, the money I move between these accounts don't constitute as transactions and shouldn't be subject to the APT tax. I think Congress would make sure that was part of the deal before passing it.
32] technomage - PING! The idea in general is great but not perfect. But, for every criticism, there is a reasonable solution that makes it better. After all is said and done, more will have been said than done.
33] mhx - Thinks that a flat income tax is the best tax reform. Fortunately, the reason why we don't have a flat income tax is because income isn't flat. At about 10%, we start putting poor families, disabled and retired people out on the streets while collecting little more than half of the current federal budget. Anything more, and we match the federal budget in the middle of a welfare crisis. That's why we have tax brackets instead which leads us back to our current predicament.
34] SAJ - Thinks that transaction-intensive businesses that operate on VERY small margins would suffer job losses, layoffs and offshore transfers as a result of the APT tax. Again, as he did in 31], he neglects to account for the net INCREASE in net margins as a result of income tax relief.
38] SedVictaCatoni - Describes how a Swiss Re transfer of $41 million into a bank account in Dallas for 24 hours would be subject to the APT tax. But it's not clear whether the transfer is between accounts owned by the same entity or constitutes an actual transaction between entities (See 31 above).
39] balrog666 & 40] boris - Both comment that the APT tax would somehow lead to an underground cash and barter economy. However, bartering is way too costly and inconvenient to be worth the aggravation and the proposal suggests a 4x cash withdraw/deposit tax to discourage the use of cash. But, seeing as people are more than willing to pay as much as 24.9% interest on credit card charges, $1.50 for foreign ATM withdraw fees and state sales taxes as high as 9% in Texas, I don't see why anyone would go out of their way just to avoid the APT tax... accept perhaps all the broke and homeless income tax attorneys.
48] ancient_geezer - Seems to like the fair tax. Unfortunately, the fair tax would add an 18% to 23% federal sales tax on top of all state sales taxes which would crush this economy. This tax base is only about 50% larger than the income tax base which is why the rate is about two thirds of the average income tax rate. It would also have to come with exemptions otherwise it would literally put low income families and retirees out on the street. That further restricts this tax base, increasing the rate and allowing for ongoing voter manipulation.
51] SC Swamp Fox - Says he would open a bar and operate entirely on cash. How long do you suppose that would last once all of his upstanding customers and employees get wind of all the cash he's hording in the back office? I'd bet he'd reconsider after less than a week, despite the tax.
54] SAJ - Thinks the APT is just a variant of the Tobin tax. In fact, I believe it is, but if his objections to the Tobin tax are as shortsighted as his objections to the APT tax, perhaps his exodus from the U.S. markets alone would help increase our GDP.
