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Labor Chiefs Plan Rally Against Bush Near Garden
NY Times ^ | August 3, 2004 | STEVEN GREENHOUSE

Posted on 08/02/2004 11:25:35 PM PDT by Former Military Chick

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To: yuppieus345
right now, the interests of the workers and the capitalists are opposed.

No. It in the interest of both to have a successful business.

Regardless of the economic system, the basic inputs of production are resources, labor and capital. Nothing can be produced without these three inputs.

Certain individuals may benefit if they can monopolize one of these inputs. However, it does not benefit society as a whole when an input is monopolized.

A labor union is simply an attempt to monopolize labor. It is no more moral or productive than a similar attempt to monopolize capital or resources. The way to thwart any monopoly is to introduce competition. The way to create a monopoly is artificially, through the use of laws and regulations.

24 posted on 08/06/2004 12:50:17 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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To: yuppieus345

When capitalism is abolished, there won't be any need for all this talk of classes; we'll all be able to live together as free and equal persons.

Also, I never said I supported the kind of "socialism and communism" I assume your talking about. Marxism-Leninism as was practiced in Russia and elsewhere was really just state-capitalism, with the state as the sole employer. I do not support the seizing of state power to effect change. Rather, I think the abolishment of state power is part and parcel to the cause of revolution against capitalism. I believe in "horizontalism", not the rule of some Bolshevik techno-managerial elite.




As with all socialists, you neglect the realities of human existence. There will never be equality of all. "Horizontalism" is a textbook fantasy.

What makes a capitalist republic so outstanding is that the individual gets to choose as much of his life-choices as is possible in any coherent state. Horizontalism is a total fiction--where does this exist in nature? Will this Horizontal World have no judgement about X being a greater, more nevied position in society than Y? Nope.

Your dream is just that. Which makes it convenient--certain folks can wish for a thing which will never come.

They never seem to grasp that they are free to have such dreams openly not in any kind of socialist wonderland, but in a society like the good ol' US of A.

:)


25 posted on 08/06/2004 12:50:38 AM PDT by Darkwolf377
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To: yuppieus345
Capitalism couldn't run if the workers were fully "compensated" for the value of their labor, because no profit could be produced.

No. Look at any supply / demand curve. There is a difference between the amount that some people would have been willing to pay for a product, and the market price they actually would have paid. This is called consumers surplus. For instance, you are so thirsty you would pay $10 for a Coke. But it only costs $1, so you profit $9 worth of benefit.

Similarly, there is a difference between the amount that people would have sold their product for and the price they actually did sell it for. This is called producers surplus. For instance, it only costs 25 cents to make a can of coke but it sells for $1. So the producer gets 75 cents profit.

The supply and demand for labor works the same way. If someone can push a button and make you $100, it is worth up to $100 to have them push the button. It doesn't matter if it's easy work or back breaking work. What matters is the value to the consumer of the labor.

Similarly, a person might be willing to push the button for $5, but gets paid $50. So they benefit.

In a free market, no transaction will take place unless both parties perceive a benefit.

26 posted on 08/06/2004 12:57:53 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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To: yuppieus345
Consumers get ripped off all the time by the capitalist class, which is continually selling them useless crap they don't need.

In a free market, it is not possible to sell someone something unless they perceive a benefit. Therefore, the only way for the capitalist to make money is to sell things people want at prices they want to pay.

Check out the history of the Irish potato famine

That would be an example of an immoral attempt to monopolize resources, which was created by government regulations and would have been eliminated if Ireland had a free market economy.

Just because a company increases profits, why do you think they would naturally want to pay workers anymore. It's never happened.

It happens all the time. Successful companies pay their employees more because they can pick the best and brightest people who in turn are more productive. If you make my company $1 million per year, I will happily pay you more than an employee who makes my company $1,000 per year.

However, if your attitude is that I owe you a job and that I'm screwing you just by showing up, then you are free to seek employment elsewhere. Unless I'm forced to hire you by some union thug.

28 posted on 08/06/2004 1:08:22 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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To: yuppieus345
The idea that no economic system can run without capital is ludicrous, and is demonstrably untrue given the wide range of historical examples

All societies, going back 10,000 or more years, have had something of value that can be exchanged for goods and services. It might be food. It might be gold. It might be livestock. It might be seashells. In a prison where there is no money, people will trade cigarettes and other things. The medium is unimportant.

All economic activity requires resources, labor and capital. It does not matter whether the system is feudalism, communism, capitalism, or anything else. The argument is over who controls which inputs.

29 posted on 08/06/2004 1:14:36 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: yuppieus345
How have you determined that the coke "only costs $1"?

In the example I gave, the market price of the coke was $1. The perceived benefit to the consumer was $10 and the cost to produce was 25 cents.

In reality, different people will be willing and able to pay different prices for the same item. Different people will be willing and able to produce the item for different prices. However, there will ALWAYS be a difference between market cost and real cost, and there will ALWAYS be a difference between perceive benefit and market cost. If there is not, then no transaction will take place.

35 posted on 08/06/2004 1:33:05 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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To: yuppieus345
why is it that when companies like Wal-Mart are raking in record profits, they pay their workers s**t and try to keep it that way by terrorizing them if they try to organize?

Part of Wal-Mart's pay is in shares of company stock. As the company makes money, they make money. There are thousands of former Wal-Mart employees who are multi-millionaires.

37 posted on 08/06/2004 1:36:33 AM PDT by VisualizeSmallerGovernment (Question Liberal Authority)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: yuppieus345

OMG, you sound just like my son -- he considers himself an anarchist, by the way. We have some HEATED discussions around this house, as you can imagine.


39 posted on 08/06/2004 2:00:05 AM PDT by IrishRainy
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