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Fact, Fable, and Darwin (If you haven't read this already, you should!!!)
American Enterprise Magazine ^ | 8/04 | Rodney Stark

Posted on 08/02/2004 3:58:04 PM PDT by Renfield

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To: Renfield
When religion lacks proof it is called 'faith'.

When science lacks proof it is called 'theory'.

I suspect that religion and science won't merge (and God won't emerge) until we are able to step back one microsecond before the big bang.


BUMP

401 posted on 08/04/2004 9:18:27 AM PDT by tm22721 (In fac they)
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To: RUCKUS INC.

I don't know much about this - is koine Greek different from Greek? What language was the Old Testament written in? Hebrew? Aremaic?
Why were they in a different language? Maybe just a sign of cultural domination by Greeks in those days............


402 posted on 08/04/2004 9:24:53 AM PDT by razoroccam (read Germs of War to know the real Armageddon)
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To: siunevada; jennyp
Why RNA has problems as the source of life.

Nucleic Acids

At least two problems associated with the extra hydroxyl group in ribose may be noted. First, the additional bulk and hydrogen bonding character of the 2'-OH interfere with a uniform double helix structure, preventing the efficient packing of such a molecule in the chromosome. Second, RNA undergoes spontaneous hydrolytic cleavage about one hundred times faster than DNA.
...
Structural stability is not a serious challenge for RNA. The transcripted information carried by mRNA must be secure for only a few hours, as it is transported to a ribosome. Once in the ribosome it is surrounded by structural and enzymatic segments that immediately incorporate its codons for protein synthesis. The tRNA molecules that carry amino acids to the ribosome are similarly short lived, and are in fact continuously recycled by the cellular chemistry.

403 posted on 08/04/2004 9:31:48 AM PDT by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic, even an atheist.</sarcasm>)
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To: Havoc; jennyp
I also don't consider whales to be transitional - a fish with lungs.

Whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals. There is actually a very clear evolutionary chain from them, if you bother to do a Google search. Whales are evolving today, too, as the potential speciation amongst Orcas shows. Whales do not seem to be evolving into gill-breathers.

Genetic mutations in recorded history have never produced a useful mutation.

DNA was discovered in the 20th century. Throughout most of recorded history, people did not even know to look for genetic mutations.

When it can't defend itself, it generates abberations and never has been observed to generate one that was useful.

Ah, the "No benefical mutations argument." Paging jennyp.

404 posted on 08/04/2004 9:36:58 AM PDT by Modernman ("I have nothing to declare except my genius." -Oscar Wilde)
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To: razoroccam

Koine Greek was the common man's greek. Greek is a lot like japanese in that different classes of people speak the language differently. The Romans dominated the culture of the day but everybody still spoke Koine. A lot of Jews at the time spoke Aremaic and Hebrew and there were other languages spoken too so everybody spoke Koine Greek in marketplaces and public places. It made the most sense to write in Greek because it would be most widely understood.

The reason the Old Testament was written in Hebrew is because it was written by Jews to Jews. It made sense for it to be writtne in HEbrew.


405 posted on 08/04/2004 9:40:58 AM PDT by RUCKUS INC. ("Wow, what a crapweasel." - Frank_Discussion)
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To: longshadow
It's rare that belligerent ignorance is worn so proudly as a badge of honor as has been seen on this thread.

You mean "invincible ignorance." ;)

406 posted on 08/04/2004 9:41:52 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Modernman

The genetic mutation in feline leukemia virus that allowed this virus to infect dogs is an example of a beneficial mutation. (It seems to be dated to Canada in 1972. Blame Canada!)


407 posted on 08/04/2004 9:50:17 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: razoroccam

Getting back to your original point about Big Bang/Evolution...

Big Bang - This is actually not a huge problem with many creationists. All that it says is that our universe had a beggining (i.e. In the Beginning God created...) Many Creationists will tell you that a Big Bang requires a Big Banger. It's called "Creatio Ex Nihilo" or creation out of nothing. The Evolutionist has a serious problem because the First Law of thermodynamics says that matter (energy) cannot be created or destroyed. The Creationist belief that something outside of our universe was the causal agent for the starting point of the universe is supported by the "Creatio Ex Nihilo" belief.


408 posted on 08/04/2004 9:55:51 AM PDT by RUCKUS INC. ("Wow, what a crapweasel." - Frank_Discussion)
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To: Havoc
There's a lot there pretending at science. But this is more like a debate between protestants and Catholics than a debate on science.

Not really. We haven't started slaughtering each other yet.

409 posted on 08/04/2004 9:58:05 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Raffiniert ist der Herrgott, aber boshaft ist Er nicht.)
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To: VadeRetro

Life is full of all too many people who will never understand the concepts of facts, evidence, or science. And this thread provides ample evidence of that theory.


410 posted on 08/04/2004 10:00:55 AM PDT by balrog666 (A public service post.)
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To: RadioAstronomer
If the universe is "flat",

FLat? Uh OH KAY Mr. "Radio Astronomer", but thats not what I see when I look at the sky. Putting on my tinfoil suit now and looking for the black helicopters.

(Hi there RA!)

411 posted on 08/04/2004 10:02:56 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: AndrewC

Your link is off on a few points. First, RNA can form a uniform double helix; it just needs to be in the A-form, not the B form. Second, RNA can from stable long-lived structures; the ribosome is one. It is true that RNA is hydrolytically labile; but remeber our DNA lasts 70 - 100 years. Shorten the lifetime by an factor of 10,000, and it's still plenty long for a primitive unicellular organism


412 posted on 08/04/2004 10:04:28 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Raffiniert ist der Herrgott, aber boshaft ist Er nicht.)
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To: stremba

Big Bang Theory supports creation...


413 posted on 08/04/2004 10:06:19 AM PDT by RUCKUS INC. ("Wow, what a crapweasel." - Frank_Discussion)
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To: balrog666
Life is full of all too many people who will never understand the concepts of facts, evidence, or science.

Makes you wonder how the Alamo defenders ever lost. All they had to do was say "There's no one out there! There is no besieging army! There are no Mexicans! We are winning!"

414 posted on 08/04/2004 10:06:52 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Havoc
Bouyancy far and away better solves the issue of how animals appear in strata and the extremely good sort of said strata all things considered.

Dear God, you're kidding, right? After everything I, and several others, have pointed out to you as to why "buoyancy sorting" does not account for what we see, you're just going to "dismiss it out of hand."

That's creationism for you.

415 posted on 08/04/2004 10:10:02 AM PDT by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: RUCKUS INC.

Now that is a reasonable and sensible post.


416 posted on 08/04/2004 10:11:24 AM PDT by razoroccam (read Germs of War to know the real Armageddon)
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To: aquila48
The difference between the theory of evolution and creationism is that the former is a science, the latter is a dogma.

No the latter is not dogma. Christian scripture arrives as a revelation from Prophets through whom God has spoken to man. So to say it is merely Dogma is to mistate the record.

The same cannot be said of creationists. They (unlike scientists) don't eagerly look for data that might disprove their theory. Rather they feel threathned by such findings and look only for data that supports their views.

Now you've shown that you've drank the koolaid. Everything researched in science by non-Christians and by many who call themselves christian is done in light of evolution - everything. Facts are only worthwhile if they support evolution. If they don't, they tend to disappear or be judged as (contaminated, abberant, etc). And it isn't as though one needs look very far to find flagrant examples. Deep coal deposites. Yep, everyone in your camp is probably on the defensive now and ready to use the word "contamination". I'm sure they're not prepared to explain man made objects found in deep coal deposits ROFL. Must be contamination as well - which is why it was embedded in the deposits. Right. Dirty little creationists using transporters to beam objects into coal deposits - oops, transporters don't exist. And the carbon levels are screwin up our lie. Time for a cover story. Have some more koolaid and the headache from the truth might go away - maybe.

417 posted on 08/04/2004 10:12:47 AM PDT by Havoc (.)
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To: RUCKUS INC.
The Evolutionist has a serious problem because the First Law of thermodynamics says that matter (energy) cannot be created or destroyed.

It's only a problem if you believe the current energy of the universe is non-zero.

418 posted on 08/04/2004 10:13:31 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Raffiniert ist der Herrgott, aber boshaft ist Er nicht.)
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To: Havoc

Take it easy, guy. Your tinfoil is getting detached, and leaving gaps for the mind-waves to get in.


419 posted on 08/04/2004 10:14:53 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Raffiniert ist der Herrgott, aber boshaft ist Er nicht.)
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To: Havoc
Adaptation is not evolution.

Okay, now I know I'm arguing with a grade schooler. Adaptation is evolution. Mutation, genetic selection, sexual selection, natural selection, whatnot, are mechanisms of evolution.

Learn a little science and get back to me.

420 posted on 08/04/2004 10:15:45 AM PDT by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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