Fix the Aging Humvee

DefenseWatch ^ | 06-22-2004 | Wayne Hommer

[Cannoneer No. 4]

We are spending a lot of money and effort to make an armored fighting vehicle out of a five quarter ton cargo truck while ignoring or acquiring in pitifully small quantity purpose-built, mine-resistant wheeled armored vehicles with V-shaped, blast deflecting hulls. Few of the other vehicles have patrons in Congress.

[wingnutx]

How are those Strykers working out?

[spoiler2]

One of the worst aspects of the Humvee's construction is the use of fiberglass panels for the structure of the main body, floor and forward hood panel. The soldiers have had to use bullet resistant vests on the floors and side walls to resist enemy small-arms fire. <Pathetic!

Once a fire erupts in or on the vehicle, it will continue to burn, right to the ground, with nothing left but the frame rails. The insurgents know this and love to burn these vehicles!!

These vehicles need a fire resistant steel structure, that can resist a rollover and gunfire, even if it adds a bit of weight.

[donozark]

When they get done "up-armoring" all the Humvee's, they still have a Humvee. And a very expensive one at that. They weren't meant for the purpose they are being used for. Better to slow down, and use the old APC. Even then, resistance to the new RPG rounds (although not plentiful-yet)is not great.

[Palmetto]

. This is a diesel boosting an astounding 150 horsepower at 3,600 rpm. Of course, the normal operating range of the Humvee engine is between 1,500 to 2,300 rpm. Without looking at the engine’s power curve, I’d suggest that would put the Humvee’s usable horsepower somewhere around 90 horsepower.

More like 75-80 hp at that rpm.

As a final base of reference the modern Duramax 6600 diesel engine produces 300 bhp. at 3,100rpm, while achieving 15-20 percent improved fuel economy over the 6.5L Duramax.

Not a fair comparison. The new Duramax (as well as Ford's Powerstroke Diesel and the Cummins Diesel used by Dodge) use turbochargers and ultra-high pressure injectors (on the order of 30000 psi). I have a feeling those features would make the Humvee a lemon in a battlefield environment.

[taxed2death]

I agree with everything, except for the Cheesy Duramax (Isuzu) diesel engine.

Why not use the USA build Cummins 5.9 "600" series engine?

1. 325 horsepower
2. 600 ft lbs torque
3. rated for GVW of 38,000!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. 40% more rod bearing surface than the Duramax (Isuzu)
5. Makes peak torque MUCH lower in the RPM range.
6. These engines typically run to 400,000 miles.
7. First schedualed rebuild is at 350,000 miles.
8. 4 factory overbore sized kits available (These engines are NOT throw-aways)!
8. Less parts to maintain than Duramax (Isuzu)
9. Parts are generally 40% to 60% cheaper than Duramax parts.
10. Available at your local Dodge dealer this fall :)

These are just a few advantages of the Cummins 5.9 "600" series.

[Wyvern75]

There are a number of things that the Army or Defense Department could do to fix the Humvee.

The engine is somewhat underpowered for what it is doing, but then it was designed to be off road and not a highway vehicle. It would make sense to have a lower HP and torque for that purpose.

The vehicle however is a b*tch to fix. It is not user friendly and it takes days to even pull an engine out. The M-1 Abrams can pull its engine out in less than an hour. Fixing a flat or changing one requires help.

The Humvee wasn't designed to be in harms way, it was supposed to be an Admin vehicle and to replace 3 or so other, much older (like 23 year old) vehicles. While the Humvee is not ambush friendly, just think what an M-151 Jeep , 3/4 ton or a Gamma Goat would be like,

While vehicle technology has changed, it takes time to get this into the military. Civilian vehicles are not rugged enough to do what Military vehicles do and even the "so called" off road vehicles have to have different parts put on them before they can take rough terrain.

Perhaps the military would be better off an just build a new "armored" car for convoy and patrol duties. But even then, it would not be able to take on the newer/improved RPGs that we are facing in Iraq (or where ever we go next).

[taxed2death]

Turbos and direct injection have NOT been proven to be a liability. Heck, even I can work on my Cummins in my driveway.....LOL. Ever seen a duramax? It defines the word "clutter".

Oh yea, I forgot, in my previous post.

11. Ease of maintenance.

[stevie_d_64]

Gee wiz!!!

Its a friggin truck...Not an APC!

Sure you can throw a chain gun or a .50 cal on top...But thats about it...

Although I do like how they have "multi-purposed" this vehicle, from its basic design...Its still just a truck...

It gets really bad MPG...It does not maneuver all that well in tight spots...But its not a tank or APC, so it has a general non-assault function...Certainly not an assault vehicle either...

It does patrol and support, it can tow just about any kind of trailer to its capacity...

But its still just a truck...

If they want more protection for the troops...Get more Bradleys and M-1's out there...Sure that kinda bites into the ole budget...But an incoming bang recieved in one of those is certainly more tolerable than in a Hummer...

The Germans in WW2 had a V-shaped compartmented, 6 wheeled vehicle...I forget the name and or designation...It had a heavy MG in a small turret on top, and in some configurations it could carry 6 troops (including crew), an communications mast to be a command vehicle...etc etc...

The russians copied it as well...

Not sure if it had a amphibious capability (I doubt it)...

Guess I should get to the drawing board and refine that design and win a big government contract and tell them to stop messing with a good thing...

Ehhhh...

Later,
Steve

[mcshot]

I figured our humvees would have had some changes incorporated after the Somalia experience. They seemed woefully inadequate for the runs thru Mogadishu and evidently little has changed. Perhaps they're just a rear echelon transporter stuck in another frontless war. As has been discussed in several threads there are effective looking alternatives that offer some blast protection but they have yet to win the number of supporters needed to effect change.

mc

[centurion316]

Guy pretty much nails it on the head. But, DOD is not currently buying any HMMWV version except the M1114. Of course, there are still lots of M998's in the inventory, but that problem will take care of itself shortly - the M998 will all be scrap metal due to use and abuse and the shortcomings mentioned in this article.

We need a new wheeled vehicle - actually several types - combat, utility, command, etc.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

How are those Strykers working out?

Depends on who you listen to. Better than some thought they would. Not as well as many hoped. Not many unbiased, honest brokers who don't have a dog in that fight reporting on 3/2 lately.

[Palmetto]

Turbos and direct injection have NOT been proven to be a liability.

They would in all likelihood be a liability on the battlefield. Turbos require much more rigorous maintenance schedules than non-forced induction engines. The high pressure injectors have indeed been somewhat of a liability for both Cummins and the Powerstroke. They require much better fuel filtering and are horribly expensive to replace.

I'm a big fan of the Cummins - but there's a reason the Army doesn't have turbocharged Humvees...

[Jim Pelosi]

I had to deliver a Humvee this morning to another armory. Was a 60 mile one way trip and it was an exhausting ride. These things are such a chore to drive it's ridiculous. Going thru the hills of New Jersey on Rt.80 I was doing a blistering 40mph with the accelerator to the floor. The blind spot on the driver's side when making a right hand turn is absurd and overall visibility in the vehicle is poor. It's to big, to heavy, and to unreliable. Needless to say I'm not looking forward to spending a year in one in the Middle East.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

CPT Davis thinks they are working out just fine.

[wingnutx]

Thanks!

[Cannoneer No. 4]

It's official: One Stryker brigade will replace another in Iraq

[Cannoneer No. 4]

O’Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt Armoring Co., Fairfield, Ohio, was awarded on June 22, 2004, a $55,950,173 modification to a firm-fixed-price contract for 2,983 M1114 Up-Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWVs) for the Army, 89 M1145 Up-Armored HMMWVs and 37 M1116 Up-Armored HMMWVs for the Air Force, five M1116 Up-Armored HMMWVs for the Navy, and five M1114 Up-Armored HMMWVs for the Defense Intelligence Agency, and 700 Overlay Kits to be applied to the production of the M1114 Up-Armored HMMWVs for the Army. Work will be performed in Fairfield, Ohio, and is expected to be completed by Dec. 31, 2004. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This was a sole source contract initiated on April 10, 2000. The U.S. Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command, Warren, Mich., is the contracting activity (DAAE07-00-C-S019).

[FreedomCalls]

Here's what they want -- the next generation HMMV:

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Humvee Hell