Posted on 06/18/2004 9:55:45 AM PDT by xsysmgr
This should be your first hint. Go back and study how Catholicism coalesced in the time of Constantine. At the same time, study what happened to the religions of rome as they were swallowed up by catholicism one by one.
Rome was known through it's history not only of being tolerant to all religions; but, of compelling public commitment to the gods recognized by the empire. To be a roman was to belong to a Universal religion that believed in and respected all the gods.. little g. Now out of that through forced conversion you get the Universal Church as it swallows up at sword point all the other religions, renaming their pagan rights and customs and adding to the scriptures till the end product is Christianized pagans. Not Christian pagans; but Christianized.. having a form that looked like Christianity on the ever so delicate facade. It has a different definition of sin, A works based salvation stored up in a treasury from which Rome dispenses Salvation in little doses at a time and calls it "grace". On and on we go. The terminology is the same until you define your terminology, then the differences pile up like holstien carcases at a hoof 'n mouth sioure'.
What Rome was doing with the inquisitions was not Christian and in no way condoned or taught in Christianity any more than what the Protestants did in the witch trials. What you see is the product of religious groups practicing philosophy - NOT Christianity. If they'd been practicing Christianity instead, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Jesus apparently thought that defending truth did not require force. (I'll give you one money-changer-temple episode if you'll give me an overall thrust of eschewing coercion.)
The simple historical principle is that the church's departures from His attitude correspond to the wax and wane of her persuasive power.
Shades and tints of inquisitorial force are probably needed to correct the caricature. So by all means correct. But the original portrait to correct TO is the Nazerene, not some other, even papal, stop along the way.
Yep. And exaggerating the mistakes of the past is not very helpful. The Church being too strong is not a practical concern at the moment.
At this stage, we have Catholic politicians who lecture the bishops on what is proper Catholic teaching. The danger of a gov't being dictated to by the Church is nonexistent.
SD
No, Dave, I think there is far more to it than that - which is why you attack me instead of dealing with the substance of what I say. That's because you can't deal with the substance. When the facts aren't with you, malign. Standard Catholic debate tactic. No, I take that back, standard Dave's religion of one debate tactic. Most Catholics don't act like you, Dave - to their credit.
Oh boy...here we go...Hitler didn't kill Jews. Clinton didn't have sex with that woman or inhale. The RCC is not full of pediphiles.....and the Inquisition was a walk in the park. Hey everyone I've got some beach front property in Colorado I am selling really cheap, its a good deal honest.
Agreed. There is no practical possibility of another inquisition, in whatever form.
But the notion that the gospel COULD even be propogated by coercive means still lives in your brethren's memes, I fear. And that is a thought-crime I'd like to exterminate.
By the Holy Ghost alone, of course. :-)
The first one was name Paul. He even got his reinterpretation into the bible. He was cursing himself but was blind to the irony of his words.
There is no substance to what you say: it's all self-serving nonsense. You like to stand above all men in history, Catholic and Protestant and proclaim yourself superior. When your errors in reading documents are pointed out, you ignore it. Since you are so superior, why do you wallow in the sins of others? Why not ask God to spare some of his mercy for those who acted in error?
SD
Of course it is different to kill in self defense. That isn't what we're talking about though. Murder is still murder regardless of the situation.
You set yourself up as the highest authority to pass judgment on those in the past that don't meet up to your superior standards.
Quite the opposite. I've pointed out that this is precisely what your church did - set themselves up as the highest authority and EXECUTED people after passing judgement on them. The judgement I passed is one of intellectual and spiritual honesty - judging fruits and message, not the soul - just as the Apostles commanded us in their writings. You know, them things you find so funny when people follow what is actually said in them instead of what you'd like us to believe is said.
"Murder" is a legal term. Words mean things.
Is it your position that no one who was ever executed after conviction by the Inquisition was a threat to society? That there was no justification for any of them?
The charge of "murder" is a serious one, and you seem to not understand that.
You set yourself up as the highest authority to pass judgment on those in the past that don't meet up to your superior standards.
Quite the opposite. ... The judgement I passed is one of intellectual and spiritual honesty
LOL. You're into self-parodyland now.
SD
The "extirminate" of Thomas Aquinas and followed by the RCC resulted in death!
Well, in a way, I'm sure Rome would like people to believe that as it's Paul that largely debunks them.
I've told you before, but you don't answer, that when "heretic" is considered here, you should think "Islamic fanatic."
I may think of people like Jan Hus.
I don't give a fig what you've told me. You are nothing but a propaganda machine. I'd as soon take instructions from Joseph Goebbels. You both believe in the "big lie" theory.
Reviewing history as if all parties were tolerant, factions engaging in civil persuasion and obeying all mores of civil society is ridiculous.
Rewriting history to show the various Inquisitions as "good things" is rediculous.
It's entirely appropriate. Now, with no more hopping, could you address the point? Why did we decide to exterminate this religious belief of the Mormons?
SD
One more thing. The Mormons caved and joined the Union. What do you think might have happened had they refused?
SD
Writing history to put the Inquisition in perspective is a useful work. We see from the idiots around here how many have bought the English propaganda completely.
SD
You haven't pointed out any error. You just say - "error" YOPIOS. You just throw that around and hide behind it and wave general personal attacks when you've no where else to go. We put up with it because we still love ya; but, you're church would have killed us for it. And scripture tells you that is wrong. You can't find a single passage in the New covenant in context that tells you that you have a right to stand in mortal judgement over your neighbor. Not one. The only places it's addressed Shows Christ Specifically stating it is wrong. That should be enough. But since there's no way around it, it has to be YOPIOS, not mine. Cause there isn't a brain twisted enough out here that makes Jesus saying it is WRONG turn into Him saying IT'S A-OK.
Why not ask God to spare some of his mercy for those who acted in error?
You mean those who's life decisions were sealed in death. They made their choices. What God does with them, he has already determined based on their choices.
I'm a Catholic, and hardly a Catholic basher. However, I have also studied history virtually my entire reading life(I am in my 50s), as it has always been my favorite subject, and is also the subject for which I am degreed from college. The Inquisition in general, and the European witchcraft and heresy persecutions of the middle millenium in particular, were of especial interest. I have read many of the transcripts, both in Latin and even in German, and the many translations of those, and others, and it is apparent to me that the Inquisition's influence on the secular trials was profound, and torture and executions were not rare.
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