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More devastating Scandal stories coming?
Bettnet.com ^ | June 16, 2004 | Domenico Bettenelli, Jr.

Posted on 06/17/2004 11:20:09 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever

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To: sinkspur
Belonging to "Call to Action" is a "grave offense"?

Call to Action is a heretical movement which opposes two ex cathedra definitions, "Humanae Vitae" and "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis". Of course belonging to them is a grave offense.

401 posted on 06/19/2004 8:25:31 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj
"Humanae Vitae" is not ex cathedra. Paul VI specifically left that definition out of the encyclical. It is, however, the ordinary magisterium.

What is grave in Lincoln, is not grave in Chicago, or New York, or even in Philadelphia.

Bruskewitz also excommunicated SSPX members.

I'm told on here, every day, even by traditional Catholics who are not in the SSPX, that it's just dandy to go to an SSPX Mass if there's no Indult Mass. And that the Vatican says that's OK.

Now, I don't think it's OK, but, if there's justification from Rome (Msgr. Perl), why would Bruskewitz think this is a "grave offense"?

402 posted on 06/19/2004 8:36:11 PM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur
"Humanae Vitae" is not ex cathedra. Paul VI specifically left that definition out of the encyclical. It is, however, the ordinary magisterium.

HV fulfills all the Vatican I conditions for an ex cathedra judgment.

The dogmatic definition specifies four elements which constitute an ex cathedra definition:

1. The Pope must speak as "the pastor and teacher of all Christians" (cum omnium Christianorun pastoris et doctoris munere fungens). As Bishop Gasser explained, this means "not ... when he decrees something as a private teacher, nor only as the bishop and ordinary of a particular province".62 Nobody can possibly doubt that this condition is fulfilled in the case of Humanae Vitae. A papal encyclical, by its very nature, is a document in which the Pope speaks in this universal capacity. In this case, Paul VI goes even further and addresses the non-Catholic world - perhaps because the doctrine he is teaching is in this case a matter of natural law, accessible and objectively binding on all human beings as such. The encyclical is explicitly addressed: "To the venerable Patriarchs, Archbishops and Bishops and other local ordinaries in peace and communion with the Apostolic See, to priests, the faithful and to all men of good will".63 The definition adds after fungens the words pro suprema sua Apostolica auctoritate - "by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority. Some commentators make this a separate or independent condition, but Bishop Gasser did not mention it as such. In fact, it is only by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority that the Pope can speak "as the pastor and teacher of all Christians", so there could be no question of his ever speaking in that capacity without making use of, or depending on, his supreme apostolic authority. In any case, this aspect of an ex cathedra decision is also spelled out in Humanae Vitae. In article 6 the Pope declares that the decision he is about to announce is being promulgated "by virtue of the mandate entrusted to us by Christ"(vi mandati Nobis a Christo commissi).64 He has just asserted in article 4, in regard to that "mandate", "Jesus Christ, when communicating to Peter and to the Apostles His divine authority and sending them to teach all nations His commandments, constituted them as guardians and authentic interpreters of all the moral law". This, he says, "is indisputable, as our predecessors have many times declared". It is thus evident that in this document the Pope is speaking precisely as the Successor of Peter the Apostle, by divine mandate and authority as the Church's supreme teacher on earth. He thereby indisputably fulfils the first condition for an ex cathedra statement.

2. The next element specified in the dogmatic definition of 1870 is that regarding the subject-matter of an ex cathedra definition: it must be "doctrinam de fide vel moribus" - doctrine of faith or morals. We have already shown in sections II and III of our study that this condition is fulfilled in the case of Humanae Vitae.

3. The dogma of 1870 then adds that in an ex cathedra pronouncement, this doctrine must be proposed as ab universa Ecclesia tenendam, literally, "requiring to be held by the universal Church". This obligation of all Catholics to accept the doctrinal decisions is repeatedly expressed in the encyclical. In the definition itself, the three practices proscribed (direct abortion, direct sterilization, and contraception) are all declared to be "absolutely excluded as licit means for regulating birth (omnino respuendam ... ut legitimum modum numeri liberorum temperandi).65

The word omnino means "absolutely", "entirely", "wholly", "utterly", as any Latin dictionary will show. And respuere means "reject", "refuse", "disapprove", "not accept". The Pope thereby unambiguously proclaims that there is an absolute, unqualified obligation on all married couples to abstain from such practices, which of course means requiring them to hold (tenere) at the intellectual level that they are under that obligation. Since decisions of the will must first be understood and assented to in the intellect, every command to do or not to do something carries with it necessarily a command to assent mentally to the obligation of doing or not doing it. Since the Encyclical is addressed to the universal Church, this obligation of mental assent extends to all Catholics, not only to the married couples most directly affected. This is evident, because doctrine - as distinct from discipline - is by its nature the same for everyone in the Church. Not all doctrines have the same binding force, of course, but to the extent that a given doctrine binds any Catholic, it binds all Catholics.

In this case, there is still more to be said. The final article of the central doctrinal section (art. 18) affirms, with respect to the laws just proclaimed, "Of such laws the Church was not the author, nor consequently can she be their arbiter", even though, as the Pope says, "It can be foreseen that this teaching will perhaps not be easily received by all". He thereby makes it clear that this is divine law, which by its very nature must be accepted with full interior assent by the whole Church, even though he foresees that not everyone will easily give that assent. Again, at the beginning of Section III (mainly pastoral directives), which concludes the encyclical, the Pontiff refers back to his doctrinal declaration in these words: "having recalled men to the observance and respect of the divine law regarding matrimony, ..."66 (homines, antea ad Dei legem de coniugio servandam colendamque incitatos...). Again in article 20 he asserts, "The teaching of the Church on the regulation of birth, which promulgates the divine law, (quae legem divinam ipsam promulgat), will easily appear to many to be difficult or even impossible of actuation".67 He then, of course, goes on to insist that it is not impossible, and that couples who fall into sin should not be discouraged, but rather, "have recourse with humble perseverance to the mercy of God, which is poured forth in the sacrament of Penance".68 This again expresses without ambiguity the obligation on the whole Church to accept the teaching. Finally, this obligation is asserted again in article 28, where the Pope tells priests: "Be the first to give an example of the sincere internal and external obedience which must be accorded to the Church's Magisterium" (vos primi ... exemplum sinceri obsequii edite, quod interius exteriusque ecclesiastico Magisterio tribuendum est).69

That obedience, he continues, "obliges ... because of the light of the Holy Spirit, which is given in a particular way to the pastors of the Church in order that they may illustrate the truth."70 In other words, the Pope repeatedly asserts that the teaching he has reaffirmed in this encyclical is divine law, which by its very nature is binding on "the universal Church" (and, in this case, on all men and women, since it concerns the natural law). Priests, of course, should be the first to give the example to the laity in manifesting that internal assent which is required of all.

From all this it is evident and undeniable that Paul VI proposes his doctrine as "requiring to be held by the universal Church", thereby fulfilling the third requirement laid down by Vatican I for an ex cathedra definition. Naturally, he does not assert that the teaching be held de fide, since he is not defining it as a point of revealed truth. As we have shown in section II, ex cathedra definitions are envisaged by Vatican I as including doctrines which are to be held with theological certainty, and this is a case in point.

4. The final condition for an ex cathedra pronouncement is that the Roman Pontiff define (definit in Latin) the doctrine he is proposing for acceptance by the whole Church. Probably in view of the uncertainty manifested by some Vatican I Fathers about this word - an uncertainty which Bishop Gasser had to clear up by carefully explaining that it was not as restrictive as they thought it might be - Vatican II replaces this single word by three words which are evidently held to express the same meaning, but more clearly: definitive actu proclamat - "proclaims by a definitive act".71

As we saw, Gasser explained that what this means is that the teaching be pronounced "directly and conclusively".72 The key notion here is that of finality - of terminating whatever doubt or controversy there may be about the doctrine in question. As Gasser made clear, there does not have to be a significant controversy in order for an ex cathedra decision to be made. But it goes without saying that when there is a serious controversy that threatens the unity of the Church in truth, then an ex cathedra decision is certainly appropriate, in which case there is a "forensic" or "juridical" quality to the Pope's decision. He is acting not only as supreme teacher but as supreme judge, settling a controversy which needs definitive, final, resolution. The Latin word definire has its root in finis, meaning end, termination, conclusion, limit. Of course, the Pope, not being omnipotent, does not have it within his power to end a doctrinal controversy de facto, since each member of the faithful always retains his or her free will and can continue rejecting and disputing even solemnly defined doctrines. This, of course, has happened throughout history, giving rise to various schisms, and it has notoriously happened in the case of Humanae Vitae. But what does indeed lie within the Pope's power is to settle the doctrinal controversy de jure, by making clear the duty of every Catholic to accept the Pope's decision as final, binding, and certainly true. "Roma locuta est, causa finita est."

Now, the fact that Pope Paul in Humanae Vitae meant to end the controversy over birth control (in the sense just explained) is evident both from the text of the document itself and from the historical circumstances in which it was prepared and issued. As is well-known by all those who have followed recent Church history, the 1968 encyclical came at a time of deep and widespread discontent, anguish, dissension and uncertainty over the question of birth control within the Catholic fold itself. That is precisely the kind of situation where an ex cathedra decision - a final, doubt-dispelling, certain resolution of a very specific doctrinal question - is an urgent pastoral necessity, in order to restore peace to millions of troubled Catholic consciences. The question had been formally reserved for the judgment of the Supreme Pontiff during the recent Ecumenical Council, which stated that, after the papal commission had completed its study of this and related problems, the Supreme Pontiff would be able to "pass judgment" (iudicium ferat).73 Now in that kind of situation, the "judgment" which is awaited from the supreme ecclesial tribunal on earth - not the Roman Rota nor the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith but the Successor of Peter in person, from whose judgment no appeal is possible - is by its very nature a definitive judgment. The last word. The end of the argument.

Pope Paul VI was well aware that this kind of definitive, certain judgment was being expected of him, and made clear in his encyclical that he intended to give it there and then. In the introductory section, he states that he enlarged the papal commission so as to gather "opportune elements of information". This would better enable him to give "an adequate reply to the expectation not only of the faithful, but also of world opinion".74 Then, in article 6, the Pope makes it clear that this encyclical will give the reply which the world has been anxiously awaiting:

The conclusions at which the Commission arrived could not be considered by Us as manifesting the force of a certain and definitive judgment (vim iudicii certi ac definiti prae se ferrent), dispensing Us from the duty of examining personally such a grave and momentous question (quaeque Nos officio liberarent, tam gravis momenti quaestionem per Nosmetipsos consideratione expendendi).75

Already the implication is completely clear: the Commission could not produce a statement with "the force of a certain and definitive judgment", but the Pope can and will give such a judgment after having "personally examined" the matter. The Holy Father then formally announces his intention (still in article 6) to hand down the long-awaited judgment in this present document. His solemn words are usually diluted or weakened in vernacular translations. The following is an accurate rendition of this key passage:

Wherefore, having carefully pondered the documentation placed before Us, having most diligently examined the matter in mind and spirit, and after having raised ceaseless prayers to God, We now resolve, by virtue of the mandate entrusted to Us by Christ, to give Our reply to these grave questions.76

Article 6 thus makes manifest the Pontiff's intention to give, in this document, a "definitive" teaching on birth control - one handed down with no less than divine authority. It is worth remembering that the "mandate" from Christ referred to here is specifically his teaching authority, not merely the governing authority by which the Pope can make disciplinary decisions. Pope Paul has just asserted in article 4, "It is in fact indisputable, as Our predecessors have many times declared, that Jesus Christ, when communicating to Peter and to the apostles His divine authority, constituted them as guardians and authentic interpreters of all the moral law."77

It is not only article 6 in isolation that makes manifest the Pontiff's intention to teach by "a definitive act" in this document. The whole structure of Humanae Vitae, from a semiotic viewpoint, shows that this is no ordinary papal encyclical. Most encyclicals, like the documents of Vatican Council II, are pastoral documents covering a quite wide range of teaching: the Church, work, social problems, Christian marriage, divine revelation, Christian education, Scripture studies, the sacred Liturgy, "errors of the present day", and so on. In such documents a number of contemporary issues are raised, guidelines, commentary and pastoral directives are often given, and various points of doctrine are often asserted or reasserted. But it is seldom that any one of them is singled out over all the others, or introduced, as it were, by a trumpet fanfare or solemn drum-roll such as the words we have just cited from article 6 of Humanae Vitae. To use another analogy, we could call them "hill-and-valley" documents: they cover a fairly large area of countryside consisting of rolling hills. There are a number of "peaks" - key points of the document - interspersed among the "valleys" of background explanation, commentary, and pastoral exhortation. Such documents constitute the "authentic" teaching of the magisterium, not claiming to be definitive, final decisions in themselves (although much of their content may well be infallible by virtue of constant and emphatic teaching by the Popes and Bishops in their Ordinary Magisterium).

Other magisterial statements, however, could be described as "mountain" documents. A mountain is centred on one specific point, which is very small in relation to the whole, but of supreme importance, standing out clearly visible from a distance of many miles: the summit. That is like the brief, direct, solemn definition of a specific doctrinal point (or perhaps two or three closely linked ones), which is the whole purpose of a "mountain" document. Just as the mountaineer is only really interested in getting to that little, sharply-defined peak of supreme importance to him, so a "mountain" document finds all its real importance in that one terse little definition, which has been eagerly awaited by a wide public. All the earlier part of the document is simply a gradual ascent of the mountain, preparing the way and anticipating the summit, perhaps, in a less formal manner. Then comes the summit itself, the formal assertion of the point which is being decided, probably introduced by one or more verbs reinforcing the gravity and finality of the decision: "We declare", "We define", "We proclaim", etc. That gravity is evident not only from the words themselves, but also from their surrounding literary terrain, just as the beauty or rarity of a precious diamond is set off, enhanced and emphasised by the costly and elaborate ring or pendant in which it is set. Now, once we look at the case before us from this semiotic perspective, the character of Humanae Vitae as a definitive act, a "mountain" document, becomes quite obvious to anyone who reads it impartially. The only other papal documents in recent history that I know of which are structured in this way are the two which are universally recognized as containing ex cathedra definitions: the Apostolic Constitutions Ineffabilis Deus of Pius IX (1854) and Munificentissimus Deus of Pius XII (1950). In each of these, as is well known, the Pontiff issued a lengthy document culminating in a short, solemn definition of a precise, specific point of doctrine: Our Lady's Immaculate Conception and her Assumption respectively. While, of course, Humanae Vitae does not define any revealed dogma, as those two documents do, it follows a structure which is similar in many ways.

The official title of the encyclical is not, as many suppose, "Human Life"78 - a very broad topic which is more what we would expect in a typical "hill-and-valley" encyclical. It is entitled, "On rightly ordering the propagation of human offspring"79 - a very precise, restricted area of doctrine. Then begins the ascent of the "mountain": the background to the controversy is set out: the Pope's intention to give a definitive settlement of it is formally announced in article 6; and the doctrinal principles underlying the decision are then explained. The coming judgment is already hinted at in the "foothills" (rhetorical questions in article 3),80 and, as the summit is approached, it is affirmed in a non-definitive way at the end of article 11: "Nonetheless, the Church ... teaches that each and every marriage act must remain open to the transmission of life." Finally, in article 14, the summit itself is reached, and the solemn definition is proclaimed. It can be distinguished as the "punch-line" from all that precedes and follows it with the same ease that the words of consecration can be distinguished from all others in the Eucharistic Prayers, or the ease with which the kernel of a nut can be plucked from its shell. The Pontiff asserts:

In conformity with these landmarks in the human and Christian vision of marriage, we must once again declare (iterum debemus edicere) that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun is to be absolutely rejected (omnino respuendam) as a legitimate means of limiting the number of offspring - especially direct abortion, even for therapeutic purposes.

Equally to be condemned (Pariter ... damnandum est), as the Church's Magisterium has repeatedly taught, is direct sterilization, whether of men or of women, either permanent or temporary.

Similarly to be rejected (Item ... respuendum est) is any act which, in the anticipation or accomplishment of conjugal intercourse, or in the development of its natural results, intends - whether as an end to be attained or as a means to be used - to impede procreation.81

It is worth noting that the language used here is very strong. The key verb, edicere, is used only for important and binding official decisions. The most authoritative Latin-English dictionary (Lewis and Short) shows that practically all usages of the word in classical Latin were for judgments and ordinances of the Senate and other public authorities. The entry says: "of magistrates: declare, publish, make known a decree or ordinance, etc., hence to establish, decree, ordain by proclamation. Respuere is also a very forceful word for "reject", its literal and original meaning bearing overtones of contempt: "to spit out" or "spit back". The Pope clearly meant to use the word as a synonym for damnare ("condemn"), since after the first use of respuere for abortion, he says that sterilization (which would here include contraceptive pills to the extent that they produce "temporary" sterilization) is "equally to be condemned". Damnare is about the strongest verb of disapproval which exists in Latin. Finally, the word omnino ("absolutely", "totally", "entirely"), which is used in the first paragraph of the definition, is certainly intended to apply equally to the verbs of condemnation in the second and third paragraphs, as is shown by their respective first words, Pariter and item. Pariter means "likewise", "equally", "in the same manner" and in this context - a list of several related affirmations - so does item. Lewis and Short give as the first meaning of item: "implying comparison - just so, in like manner, after the same manner, likewise, also (cf. ita, pariter, eodem modo)".

Let us return to our semiotic observations on Humanae Vitae. The main structural difference between the encyclical and the documents of Pius IX and Pius XII mentioned above is that Humanae Vitae has a long "descent from the summit as well as an ascent up to it, whereas the other two have the solemn definitions (of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption respectively) placed almost at the end. Paul VI decided to add a third section containing pastoral directives (articles 19-31), as was appropriate in a document with such sweeping practical implications for the everyday lives of millions of Catholics. But the summit itself is certainly no less obvious for its central, rather than terminal, location. By what the Pope declares in his definition against abortion, sterilization and contraception, and by the literary and historical context of that definition, especially article 6 of the encyclical, it is evident that this pronouncement fits the official explanation given by Bishop Gasser to the Vatican I Fathers as to what the word "defines" means in the dogmatic definition of papal infallibility: "the Pope directly and conclusively pronounces sentence" about the doctrine in question; and he does so "in such a way that each one of the faithful can be certain... of the mind of the Roman Pontiff; in such a way that he or she knows for certain that such and such a doctrine is held to be heretical, proximate to heresy, certain or erroneous, etc., by the Roman Pontiff."82 In the present case, in which there is no mention of heresy, revealed truth, or something to be held de fide, the appropriate qualification is simply "certain". Any reasonably intelligent member of the faithful who reads Humanae Vitae with an open mind, taking note of the fact that the Pope here claims to be teaching with a mandate from Christ, and that he prohibits "absolutely" the three specified methods of birth control as being contrary to the "unchangeable" natural law given by God,83 can be left in no doubt whatever that in the mind of the Roman Pontiff, this doctrine is completely certain. This was also the conclusion of the noted theologian Cardinal Charles Journet, whose authoritative commentary in L'Osservatore Romano shortly after Humanae Vitae was published affirms: "The Pope manifestly has the intention of settling a controversy" (ha evidentemente l'intenzione di dirimere una controversia); his response has been given "with precision and certainty" (con precisione e certezza); and "brings with it certitude" (è apportatore di certezza).84

We have now carefully examined, word for word, the four characteristics of an ex cathedra definition specified in the dogmatic definition of 1870, in the light of Bishop Gasser's authoritative explanation of the text and the subsequent teaching of Vatican Council II. We have also examined Humanae Vitae, presenting evidence that the definition in article 14 of the encyclical clearly manifests all four characteristics. We conclude, therefore, that this definition is indeed an ex cathedra proclamation - infallible and irreformable in itself.

What is grave in Lincoln, is not grave in Chicago, or New York, or even in Philadelphia.

It is grave there, bishops just aren't doing their jobs.

Now, I don't think it's OK, but, if there's justification from Rome (Msgr. Perl), why would Bruskewitz think this is a "grave offense"?

The legislation is only for "members" of the organizations. I'd say being a member of a schismatic sect is a grave offense.

403 posted on 06/20/2004 6:20:34 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: american colleen
There is not one church that has had no sexual abuse of children and swept it under the rug. Not unless you worship at home and not in a community of some sort.

You see it in every denomination...so, why is the Catholic Church always the one that gets the most coverage and the most negative press? The number of incidents may be greater but are the figures greater, percentage-wise? Churches are for the sick and for the sinners, among others; we sick & sinners must now heal our Churches.
404 posted on 06/20/2004 7:35:50 PM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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To: ninenot
International pedophilia ring, with Franciscans.

Ah, man...not the Franciscans....
405 posted on 06/20/2004 7:39:35 PM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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To: NYer
Isn't McCarrick (sic?) the one Kerry visited recently?
406 posted on 06/20/2004 7:40:57 PM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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To: thor76
thor76...I'm only slightly familiar with Fr. Malachi Martin and, sad to say, I think that was from Coast to Coast <8^\

Can you direct me to a good site or book where I can get an education on him? Thanks!
407 posted on 06/20/2004 7:45:31 PM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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To: Rutles4Ever
For those who were looking, here is a link to the story:

Runaway priests hiding in plain sight

408 posted on 06/20/2004 8:32:38 PM PDT by NCjim
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To: sinkspur
If a universal law threatens an undetermined penalty or a discretionary penalty, a particular law can establish in its place a determined or an obligatory penalty.

Nope, Sinky, THIS is his justification.

409 posted on 06/21/2004 5:09:09 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: sinkspur
A "grave offense" in Lincoln is not a "grave offense" in Chicago.

So, the grave offense in Lincoln is not a grave offense.

Your logic is flawed, but that's not a first.

"Grave offenses" are the same all over. The difference is that Bruskewitz, being a GOOD shepherd, reminds his flock that there ARE such things as grave offenses.

In this regard, it is identical to the reminder about the necessity of seeing the parish priest in cases of civil separation/divorce.

IOW, Sinky, the Church is a guide in many matters, whether you agree or not.

410 posted on 06/21/2004 5:13:15 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: gbcdoj; sinkspur

In regard B's excommunication of "members" of SSPX--IIRC, Sink, that was also settled by Rome in an identical fashion--with 'membership' being defined as priests and Bishops and a clear warning for laypeople NOT to become "attached" because the same penalty inheres to such "attachment."

So you are wrong on HV, which was shown (above) to be infallible and is, in any case, a re-statement of constant Church teaching, (remember?)

And Bruskewitz is right on "membership" sanctions; Rome is in the same place.

Hmmmmmmm.


411 posted on 06/21/2004 5:20:13 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: hummingbird

I haven't seen all the newspaper articles yet, as they have not been printed. Somewhere along the line, either a Bettnet or FR poster suggested that it was Frannies and Salesians mentioned in the series. THAT was posted after the individual heard the NPR interview of the series' author.

SEPARATELY, an article was posted from the Philly newspaper on Saturday, indicating that the principal of Br. Ryan HS in Philly was alleged to be a molester and also was a fraud-artist with the HS's money. That principal was a Wisconsin-province Franciscan.


412 posted on 06/21/2004 5:23:52 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot
Arghhhhhh....thanks, ninenot. I'm reading THE HOLY ROSARY Papal Teachings (copyright 1980). Passages are "selected and arranged by The Benedictine Monks of Solesmes" and begin with Clement XIII ("1758 - 1769") through Pope John Paul II ("1978 - ).

If one removed all dates and names of popes included in this book, one would think it was published regarding events today. I guess there really isn't anything new under the sun. Not just in the Church, but in all ways, we keep repeating the same mistakes. I guess Evil never tires of testing each generation, especially when we never seem to learn from our past. Not throwing stones at the Church or anyone, especially when it seems I have to confess to the same types of sin over and over! LOL!
413 posted on 06/21/2004 9:21:40 AM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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To: hummingbird

Sort of gives the lie to philosophies based on "progress," eh?

You know, the ones which took up the flawed 'science' of evolution and applied them to society...


414 posted on 06/21/2004 10:25:52 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot

Yes...clothing styles and philosophies come and go but we seem to stay basically the same. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........


415 posted on 06/21/2004 11:25:13 AM PDT by hummingbird ("If it wasn't for the insomnia, I could have gotten some sleep!")
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