Taking Back Islam - Moderate Muslims say their faith is compatible with Freedom.

No, I really wasn't dumping!

I'm serious. I was directing my post at nuconvert!

My thesis: There is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim." by definition, Wahabiism and the like are the only possible interpretation of the moon god and the pedophile warlord who saw a good thing by saying "allah is on my side."

The pedophile muhomad ('may he burn in eternity') saw that religion would give him an advantage since most people needed something to hang on to. mohomad ('may he burn in eternety') used the concept of god to give him carte blanche to be a big warlord.

Anyone who follows the pedophile warlord shows the same mental ability as those who follow white racists, jessie jackson, or any other "religion" and adherents which use God (or an analogy since the real Creator of the Universe would never sanction killing of innocents) in the wrong way.

Islam is 0% about love and 100% about adherence. READ MY POSTS! WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE! ISLAM IS AN EVIL IDEOLOGY THAT USES RELIGION AS A COVER!!!!!!!!!!

I've heard the 'prophet' (may he burn in hell for all eternity) called many things but never a WARLORD! Above all, that name fits him best. Hey, did you notice the message on my tag-line? Do yourself a favour and download that book and save it to read. It was published in 1913, long before we had any idea what islam is. It places the 'revelations' into context and shows just how conniving and evil that man was. I was fascinated to find that one of his cutthroat henchmen was named Osama; whose function it was to set fire to villages, burning the inhabitants alive.
Osama bin Laden = carrying on the koranic tradition.

Re: 128 & 132
In doing a quick overview of the Middle East, 1500-1800, the Ottoman Empire takes center stage. Although it was a time of warring and empire expansion, it also produced a great navy, achievements in architecture, and produced many literary works. (Most of the beautiful tiled mosques were built during this time also). There may have been a "slow down" in the time period you point out,(I haven't gone back and checked), but things seemed to pick up again after 1400. So, there wasn't a total cessation in cultural achievements. And since Islam was still around, it's hard to use that in your hypothesis.
I'd like to do a little more research on earlier dates you mentioned, also. Might be a few days before I get back to you. Ma'as salaama.

Look, you've made some pretty ridiculous statements.
How can you say that Islam is 0% NOT about a diety? It is by definition submission to God.
You obviously don't like the term "moderate". There are different sects, some more orthodox, some more radical.....
People choose how strictly they follow the Bible; they choose how strictly they follow Koran. Plain and simple.
I "don't support an ideology that wants to kill everyode/everything else."
I support people's rights to practice the religion of their choosing. As long as in so doing, it doesn't harm anyone else. That means, I don't support islamofascist terrorists.

I wish I could say this was the first time I'd "come across a rude person on FR" (as Fred said), unfortunately, it's not.

Yes, all muslims are not terrorists, but why are all the terrorists muslims? Is it because anything that muhammad did is considered to be 'sinless and divine'? He took part in the beheadings, the pillage and the rapes...he 'revealed' that allah 'told him' women captives could be 'taken to wife in the field of battle...' What a strange, twisted 'god' is allah!
If you really believe allah is to the arab what God is to the Original Testament, why didn't allah give the arabs the Ten Commandments? The arabian 'god' gave permission for every evil thing man has ever been guilty of, and made it holy!
The Ten Commandments really would have cramped muhammad's style! Wake up, all the koran is, is a plagiarized mish mash of what the 'prophet' heard from the Hebrews (the people of the book)on the temple steps in Mecca, and from the time he lived with them - when they gave him shelter and fed him and his scabby followers. How were they repaid? 800 men were decaptiated, buried in a mass grave. The women and children were taken captive.
Very conveniently, at this time, another 'revelation' was received. Allah told muhammad (paraphrasing) he wanted him to 'have all their possessions...and their land for an inheritance'.
God? You must be out of your mind. Allah isn't God, allah is the fabrication of a psychopathic mind.
By all means, remain a nuconvert; but please, do yourself a huge favour. Study the history, the background, before you give your naive soul to a cult. Read the biography. Just click on my name and you will find the link. Life is all about learning, after all.

Look, 1) I'm not a convert to islam. Calm down.
2) I'm not here to defend Mohammed. Though I don't like when people repeat falsehoods, or inaccurate information.
So I do correct mistakes. I believe your story about "The
people of the Book" sufferes from an omission. They were killed because they were planning a revolt. They were planning on killing him. Anyone who wasn't involved in plotting against Mohammed, was spared. Those were his instructions.
You may believe that Christians and muslims believe in a different God. Fine. That's your opinion.
You obviously don't like the muslim religion, fine again. Don't sign up.
I'm glad you admit that "all muslims are not terrorists".

"They were killed because they were planning a revolt...anyone who wasn't involved in plotting against mohammad, was spared. Those were his instructions."

Islamic waffle.

Read chapter six of The Life of Muhammad.

And btw I fully support the efforts of any forcibly converted endigenous folk such as the Persians, to throw off the yoke of the islamic clerics. Even in Egypt, there is a movement away from the arabian domination. They have stated loud and clear "we are NOT arabs!"
Even the nutter Ghaddafi of Lybia has said the same. His words were...WE ARE AFRICAN!

However, as much as I wish them well, wish them freedom from arabization, unless every muslim in the world begins to understand what a conniving, evil, psychopath mohammad really was, freedom will for ever be elusive.

You are helping no one by your stance...all you are doing is spreading the same white-wash that islam always has.

Mohammad is islam and islam is mohammad. As long as he is considered to have been a 'divine and sinless man' who heard the word of allah through the intermediary of the archangel Gabriel...and therefor the koran is 'holy' because it (what?) came from allahs mouth to mohammad's ears? Every rotten thing he did in his lifetime is what a 'good muslim' must also do, to please allah....

Hey, did you know, that at the end of the 19th Century, somewhere in the USA, a court ruling was made - that islam was not a religion. I believe that ruling still stands.

Now read that book. It's free. If you do, you and I will never need to have this conversation again.

True, culture was not non-existant, but great cultures were destroyed, rather than augmented, unlike like the Romans, who built on the Greek culture, and we Americans who built on the British culture.

(Most of the beautiful tiled mosques were built during this time also).

That really is the only common great cultural legacy I have really noted in Islam, and it is actually based on the original design of the great christian church Hagia Sophia, in Constantinople/Istanbul, originally built in the 500's, and when conquered in about 1300 or so, became a mosque, and minarettes were added. One of the most famous buildings in the world:
http://www.guideistanbul.net/ayasofya.htm

And the Taj Mahal, such a place, in Agra, India, a tomb for the muslim Sha Jahan's wife is most lovely and was the apex of the Mughal architecture, around 1500 AD, when the Muslims took over and ruled India.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0834335.html

And from this same time period there is magnificent, Alhambra palace in Granada, in Spain.
http://lexicorient.com/spain/alhambra.htm

And the Citadel and Mosque of Mohammed Ali in Cairo
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0834335.html

But, it seems to me, that when the Islamists finished "eating" all these other cultures, around 500 years ago, their conquests ceased, they started being driven back, and their own contributions, other than the minarette, didn't seem to be much of anything, and they stagnated. And as the western cultures developed, they bit off more than they could chew and choked.

This is now, according to the Muslim Calendar, about 1486, or something like that, which seems to be where they are stuck in the Christian calendar.

Ma'as salaama.

145 - "I "don't support an ideology that wants to kill everyode/everything else."
I support people's rights to practice the religion of their choosing. As long as in so doing, it doesn't harm anyone else. That means, I don't support islamofascist terrorists. "

Unfortunatlely, most Muslims are unwilling to take that stand publicly, and too many Muslims are willing to kill everybody, and no one in their own group seems to be willing to stop them.

Look at that rescent meeting in Phoenix, where out of 50,000 muslims in the area, promoted to declare exactly what you just stated, only about 200 people showed up, and most were not muslims, but reporters.

Am I not correct, that your statement above ("I support people's rights to practice the religion of their choosing.") is apostasy, you are guilty and could be executed for that?

I have never heard a Muslim ever utter the words - "everybody is entitled to freedom of religion", unless, add afterward were, "as long as they believe in Allah, pray 5 times a day, and pay the tax".

148 - Interesting post, and most of it I agree with.

Most Westerners/Americans really haven't got a clue as to what the current war really is, or how great a struggle it really is.

It is really hard and going to be really hard, for the truth is, that most Muslims don't really care about the West, one way or another; most are afraid of change; and most are uneducated. Their tyranical rulers find the religion convenient to maintain their power, just as the communists found their ideology convenient to maintain their power, and just as the demonRATS here is the US find that it is most convenient to keep the people poor and ignorant to maintain their power.

It is human nature.

But, to 'practice' their religion - muslim the owners of the power must try and keep their people from being educated and informed and keep them from demanding change. So,the real battle of the west to win is actually to change the culture of 1 billion people, as the muslim power brokers really don't want the base of their power to find out what is going on, lest they want some power for themselves and depose the despots.

And, as such, they fan the flames of fanatacism.

Look at the difference in attitudes and actions in Africa and Muslim. We generally maintain amicable relations with millions of poor people in Africa, because they aren't trying to kill us everywhere.

Muslim religion is a culture/religion of conquering and killing, though that is not the natural culture/nature of the muslim peoples.

So we have a real, major, cultural war. And it is the oil wealth of the mid-east that exposed the cultures of the mid-east to the cultures of the west. Without oil, nobody would give a damn about a bunch of muslim goat herder fanatics in the desert, and there would be peace.

So, maybe the real answer is to nuke all the oil in the mid-east, destroying the source of the friction, and perhaps everyone would get along a lot better.

You're still arguing the religion -it's beliefs. I understand you dislike the religion, that's your choice.
It doesn't matter to me if muslims say, "everybody is entitled to freedom of religion." That's what I believe, and that's why people came to this country to begin with.

I wish many more muslims would speak out against the radicals, but I realize muslims are afraid to. So does Dr. Jasser. I'm sure he's received some very unpleasant calls and emails.
The Wahhabi here in U.S. are almost totally responsible for that. I think the best analogy may be the mafia. They were permitted into people's neighborhoods, even though they killed and terrorized people. And no one spoke out against them. No one wanted to call the police, or get involved. Because they knew, that there would be a knock on their door, or a phone call, and they would put their family in jeopardy if they spoke out. It's very similar.
Though the wahhabi are backed by Saudi oil money, nuking the oil wells is not the answer. Money in the hands of the terrorist leaders is part of the problem. But in order for the islamofascist movement to grow and continue, they need new recruits. You think muslims don't care about the west. You're wrong. They care a lot. If they're radical fundamentalists/terrorists, they hate the west. If they're traditional, moderate, or secular muslims, they want the opportunities and lifestyle that most Americans enjoy.
Actually, the Saudis are getting what they deserve now. They pushed their radical fundamentalist beliefs and supported terrorists all these years. Now, the terrorists are turning on them. They are reaping what they have sown.
I can't agree on your Africa example. Terrorists/islamofacists are killing both muslims and non-muslims there also.
That's an important fact that people overlook. This WOT isn't muslim vs non-muslim. The people tortured and killed by the Taliban were muslims. The people tortured and killed by the Iranian regime are muslims. The people in Saudi who have been tortured and killed for years by the government there, are muslims. Yes, non-muslims are killed also. As the President has stated, "We are not fighting a religion. We are fighting a totalitarian political, ideology."

Here's an interesting article on Muslim extremism in the U.S. ...

http://members.fortunecity.com/amirm/Extremism.html

Here's Dr. Jasser's statement after Nick Berg's murder.

A Monstrous Lie

May 17 , 2004
M. Zuhdi Jasser

Arizona Republic's WeBlog PluggedIn

Al Qaida's hooded demons took the life of Nick Berg in a monstrous display of medieval butchery. Their mortifying mention of God and Islam shook my soul beyond disgust and toward more resolve. It is more painfully clear that we must exterminate their hate and pan-exploitation. Their concern over the Abu Ghraib prisoners is obvously false while they repeatedly kill and torture innocents in Iraq and all over the world. There should be no remaining doubts that rooting out Al-Qaida's ilk is to protect our freedoms and actually protect Islam from their scourge."

153 "You think muslims don't care about the west. You're wrong. They care a lot. If they're radical fundamentalists/terrorists, they hate the west. If they're traditional, moderate, or secular muslims, they want the opportunities and lifestyle that most Americans enjoy. "

Actually, not true. Most muslims know nothing about the west, and like most people around the world, they personally don't really give a fig-newton about what is going on in the rest of the world, outside the confines of their local town/village. I have worked and lived in places, where the whole world could disappear in a massive war, and the locals would not know or care, but would go on with their lives, as if nothing had happened. The fishermen would just turn their outboard motor into an anchor, and raise their sail. The farmers would park their tractor, and hook up their pet camel, or water buffalo or ox again (if they aren't still using them). And the local candlemaker would resume his work and have a booming business. But other than that, nothing much would change.

Most Muslims are good people, (in spite of their religion) just as most people of the world are good people.

However, when they get a bit more education, and a bit more money, and become aware of the west and "they want the opportunities and lifestyle that most Americans enjoy. "

That only happens when they become 'aware'. Allah wills their life to be as it is, and Allah is Great, and Allah is Good, and basically, they are happy and relatively content, as their way of life is "Allah's Will", and there is nothing much they can do about it.

It seems like most of the Muslim terrorists are spawned when they get some money, some education about the rest of the world, and start reading the Koran.

153 - "I can't agree on your Africa example. Terrorists/islamofacists are killing both muslims and non-muslims there also. "

That isn't what I meant. What I meant was that the Africans have been killing and murdering and enslaving each other many thousands of years, and really, nobody else cares (except where there is oil - like Angola, Lybia and Nigeria). The only times we (the US) has ever responded to anything like that in Africa, was when the Barbary Pirates took our ships in the early 1800's, and when the Germans took "our" oil fields in North Africa.

Look at the massive murders of Angola, Uganda, Ruwanda, Sudan, Mozambique, etc etc etc - none stimulated a response from the US based on 'morality', and they aren't preying on us, either (except for a few rich muslim extremists). They are terrorizing each other, and we ignore it, and they ignore us.

What is it about the muslim religion which inspires such terrorism, other than the teachings of muhammed?

"What is it about the muslim religion which inspires such terrorism, other than the teachings of mohammad?"

If you were to read Sir William Muir's book 'The Caliphate- It's Rise Decline and Fall' AND 'The Life of Muhammad' written by Edward Sell, any and all questions you may have about islam will be answered.

Without the biographical history of the 'prophet' from an early age and the history of islam, it's incessant killing sect by sect throughout the centuries after his death until the caliphate was destroyed in the 12th century in Baghdad as recorded by Muir; Piracy and the use of revenue from oil are nothing but yesterday's events and 9/11 a natural progression of islamic thought.

No discussion about islam leads anywhere without an understanding of it's history. I am continously dissappointed at the numerous arguments I read on so many forums - where it is evident the participants would rather pick up a snake, than read a book!

Pirates? Here's a rather (long) good one. Did you know that over a million people were taken into slavery from the southern coasts of England?
http://www.iconfilms.co.uk/whiteslaves/thestory.html

How can you say that Islam is 0% NOT about a diety? It is by definition submission to God.

*bbzzzzt* And Jessie Jackson is about supporting back people. Islam was created to glorify and deify MUHAMMED (may he burn with pork forever). He used allah better than a snake-oil salesman. It is 100% about WINNING.

It gives some lip service about God's love, but mostly is about SUBJEGATION to God. Not subservience, but SUBJEGATION.

Read the plain text!

wish I could say this was the first time I'd "come across a rude person on FR" (as Fred said), unfortunately, it's not.

I defy you to show me how I have been rude. I did say that someone (you, actually) had taken the "stupidest position available." I did not call you stupid.

If you can't handle a little rough and tumble then stay out of the playground. But don't take someone who challenges your quaint, yet dangerous 5th Column thinking, as being rude to you.

Al Qaida's hooded demons took the life of Nick Berg in a monstrous display of medieval butchery. Their mortifying mention of God and Islam shook my soul beyond disgust and toward more resolve. It is more painfully clear that we must exterminate their hate and pan-exploitation. Their concern over the Abu Ghraib prisoners is obvously false while they repeatedly kill and torture innocents in Iraq and all over the world. There should be no remaining doubts that rooting out Al-Qaida's ilk is to protect our freedoms and actually protect Islam from their scourge."

Translation: "These fools showed the world what we really are. Our Political Correctness strategy, which has worked so well to this point is now under scrutiny.

Thank allah for our 5th column. I hope it is enough"

LoL. How come you fell all over yourself when Fred accused you of being rude?

The rest is all just your opinion. Your problem is you make ridiculous, outlandish, absolute, statements and then have to back-off a bit when someone calls you on it.
If you read my posts, you'd know "5th Column thinking" is another ridiculous statement.

"SUBJEGATION to God." That's your opinion, but so what if it's true? It's their religion. If that's what they want to believe, it's their business, not yours.

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