Posted on 05/29/2004 12:24:36 PM PDT by Destro
Doubtful. The Serbs had a problem winning hearts and minds in Racak--something about burning 80 houses there in August 98 and then coming back in January 99 and massacring the citizens. Although it is true that some of the citizens were undertandably resentful that the KLA garrison in Racak did not fight better to protect their friends and neighbors from being murdered by the Serb forces.
The KLA went in and gangpressed villagers that morning as per KLA commander Buja's ICTY testimony
I've read Buja's testimony. There is nothing in there to support what you say. The KLA was routed first thing that morning and not able to re-enter even the edge of the village until after the Serb forces left at dark. The transcripts are here and here. Please show me what he said to back-up your claim.
The firefight was filmed by a ABC camera crew. The film directly contradicts 'eyewitness' accounts parroted by HumWarrior media.
Well, Vooch--give some examples how the film "directly contradicts" the eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses say the Serb police rounded up close to 30 men and led them away up the hill to where most of them were killed. Is there a film clip showing the KLA doing that instead of the Serbs? Eyewitnesses--also known as survivors--escaped through the woods as the Serbs massacred the men in the gully. How is that contradicted? And btw, it was an AP photographer, not an ABC camera crew.
As for evidence that "directly contradicts" other evidence--read the transcripts above and you can read excerpts from two official Serb reports on Racak issued within a day of each other. One says that the Serb forces killed 15 KLA and the other says they killed sixty. So which is right, 15 or 60? And who killed them—however many there were—Serbs or the KLA or—maybe it was MPRI? And of course there was the report in the Washington Post providing excerpts from telephone conversations between Serbian Interior Ministry General Sreten Lukic and Yugoslav Deputy Prime Minister Nikola Sainovic, who ordered Serb forces to “go in heavy” in Racak. The two later discussed ways that the killings might be covered up to avoid international condemnation.
So lets recap: Forensic reports say the Albanians were unarmed civilians killed where they were found in the gully and that they were killed in the clothes they were wearing when found. Eyewitnesses saw the Serbs lead the Albanians in the direction of the gully and then heard gunfire. Four survivors escaped the massacre and told of the group being mowed down by Serbs.
The Serb stories are that there were 15 dead, no wait 60. They were KLA killed by Serb security forces. But wait, they’re not wearing uniforms! So, they were KLA killed in the battle, but the other KLA changed them into civilian clothes and planted them in the gully in order to blame the Serbs. Uh-oh, the forensic team says that the bullet holes and congealed blood all indicate that the bodies were killed in the civilian clothes they were wearing. Oh, now we have it! They were in fact civilians, but were killed by the KLA in order to blame the Serbs! Pay no attention to the facts that there are no eyewitnesses and zero evidence of any kind to support any of those stories. That OJ Simpson would have been embarrassed to have a story that weak.
There is a Greater Truth to be served: The blameless Serbs are not to be blamed. Eyewitnesses—hah! Forensic reports—hah! The Serbs may only have opinions, conjecture, and irrelevancies on their side(s), but after all the dead were just shiptars--mostly moslem, right? And they “breed” so fast! Besides, since 1389, the Serbs have defended Christian Europe and rescued 500 American flyers in the process. No one should dare to beat you! Whoops, started channeling Slobo for a few seconds.
Vooch, wanna know why Serbia is last in line for PfP, NATO, the EU, and even US Aid; behind even Macedonia, Croatia, Albania, and Bosnia? Wanna know why Serbia has a problem getting Serb war criminals released to be tried in Belgrade? Wanna know why Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Powell visit Albania and Macedonia, but take a wide berth around Serbia? Wanna know why the USA is asking for help in the War on Terror from just about every country in the world, but won’t accept Serbian troops? Its because of the culture of denial exemplified by you and your fellow-travelers on the Balkans threads. Serb war-crimes are obvious, yet any Serb politician attempting to address them gets shot or almost voted out; a la the Foreign Minister last week. Serbia cannot be trusted and until they can be, they will be on the outside looking in. I think Kostunica and Vuk know the truth and also know what needs to be done, but they are afraid of getting Djindjic’d and therefore are moving very cautiously. Unfortunately, instead of playing a constructive role, you & DTA & Seselj & Former Lib continue to sing chorus after chorus of "Didn't do it, can't prove it, they deserved it"
And, btw, William Walker is a great American who at the request of President Reagan and at the risk of his life represented the USA in Latin America and played a key role in defeating the communists and helping our allies in El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua. For which he will never be forgiven by Chris Dodd, CISPES, and the NY Times. It does not surprise me that Slobo fans are also his enemy.
Every "fact" that you cite is not a fact at all. These are things that are in dispute, are contradicted by eyewitness accounts, and/or are propaganda wrapped around half-truths at best.
One day, the Moslems will kill someone that you care about. Count on that, it WILL happen.
When it does, you may begin reviewing these "facts" without your conclusion already firmly placed in your mind and then, maybe then, you might realize the truth.
Of course, your enlightenment will come at quite a price.
This photo is of Major Cliff Patterson. He was going to get out of the Army--I talked him into staying. I then tried talking him into going to the Balkans with me--he wanted to stay in Washington,--his Dad is a D.C. cop. He was killed in the Pentagon on 9-11.
Savage has been right since the start. He was the only one I can remember that said this.
I wonder why almost every Albanian who post here on FR claims things that are mix of fiction and deliberate lies.
I'm not from Albania. I'm only defending a people that supports America and loves freedom.
The Italian people and the Polish people don't support OP Iraqi Freedom. However, the Eastern countries like Poland or Albania are pro-American countries. Albania is the most pro-American of them.
And I see that you've fallen into the trap that anyone on the side of the Serbian people is also somehow on the same side as the commie thug Slobodan Milosevic.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The Serbian people are not some single-minded monolithic force. That you would even suggest such (and you have in your postings) has fallen prey to the first goal of propaganda: to dehumanize the enemy.
The fact is that the Communists held Serbia in the typically brutal Communist fashion and particularly oppressed the Serbian Orthodox Church. Most of the pro-Serb posters on this board support the Christian Serbs, not the Communist ones.
It doesn't take much looking to realize that the crimes committed by "the Serbs" were in fact committed by Serb Communists. Yet, in Kosovo, we see that it is the Christian Serbs who are being smacked about by the Muslim terrorists. The Serbs have gone from getting kicked by their own Communist thugs to getting kicked by someone else's Islamic thugs.
You'll just have to forgive us for not wanting to see the Serbs getting kicked just because it is someone else who is doing the kicking.
As Americans, we also have to notice that the people who are attacking the Serbs spring from the same well as those who attacked our country on Sept. 11th.
It is unfortunate that the US didn't persue a Contra-style method of removing Milosevic. The Serbs weren't far away from giving Slobo the Ceaucescu treatment to end his career when Kaiser Willie started the illegal bombing campaign and helped turn Slobo into a national hero. That little twist alone is all the reason I need for not forgiving Bubba for what he did.
Wake up, mark! You've fallen for Clinton's propaganda!
So, liberal claim "Kosovo, province of Serbia whose 90% Albanian population favors independence" was a big, fat lie?
More than 225,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed in the presence of NATO troops in 1999, and some 100,000 remained in Kosovo.
If Serbs were indeed only 10% of Kosovo population (225,000+ 100,000), that would mean that total Kosovo population in 1999 was over 3 million.
This is of course nonsense.
The lie about Kosovo being 90% Albanian was made to justify the bombing and hide subsequent NATO-sponsored ethnic cleansing.
Kosovo is not Albania, it is Serbia.
The Albanians currently occupying Kosovo represent displaced Mafia thugs who fled Albania's economic collapse along with the most radical and virulent Muslim radicals.
All in all, I'm sure Albania is glad to be rid of them!
But handing over part of someone else's country is not the answer. Their sustaining campaign of terrorism and illegal immigration must not be rewarded by giving them Kosovo independence. Particularly since we don't want to inspire their behavior is certain parts of our own nation.
Oh, that's the reason why Himler created 21st gebirgs-Waffen SS division Skenderbeg (Albanishe Nr.1), to fight against Nazis.
Please stop posting historical nonsense.
bump.
If after twelve years the answer isn't clear to me (and I pay far more attention to this stuff than the average American voter) then the only conclusion I can draw is that it isn't clear to the government either, and we have no business being involved in the Balkans at all. Bush's first order of business should be to pull all of our troops out of the area. Send them to Iraq, where we at least have some idea who the bad guys are.
Warith, also kindly explain to Mark502 how Buja's gang trolled through the village and gangpressed (er 'asked for volunteers') that day. Tell him a bit about your pals Remi & Gashi.
Joan, please explain to poor Mark502 how the ABC film contradicts his beloved 'eyewitness' stories.
Wonders, you may wish to illuminate to Mark502 how guerillas/paramilitaries such as the KLA would use loyalist villages such as Racak as locations of firefights in order to force the population into extremism
In this interview, already discussed here on FR Ranta revealed the mechanism behind the Racak hoax. It is high time for Albanian propagandists and suppporters paid by heroin money to admit this hoax also. Heck, you should be proud of pulling off the scam comparable to Gliewitz.
Prior to that, the Turks record over 40 Albanian revolts in Kosovo. The last one involved a 30,000 man Albanian force--mostly of Kosovars--that went so far as to capture Skopje from the Ottomans. The Kosovar Albanians have pursued self-rule regardless of whether they were under the control of Ottoman Muslims or Serbian Orthodox. They have tried insurrections, political movements, demonstrations & protests & strikes, forming alliances, establishing a parallel government and so on. All types of Albanians have participated in these movements; whether Sunni, Bektashi, Catholic, irreligious or whatever. And whoever opposes them becomes the enemy, whether Orthodox Serbs or Muslim Turks, Gorani, Roma & Ashkali.
The Kosovar Albanians have selected Christians as leaders in the KLA, elected Christians as leaders in their government, and have established secular law to include freedom of religion. They have not elected imams or mullahs, have not imposed sharia, etc. The Catholic Church has grown over the past five years and Albanian Catholic churches and priests operate openly and unmolested. Similarly with the Bektashi sect--they are sizable in Albania-proper and Kosovo, but are considered as heretics by most Muslims & would be attacked by Islamists just as readily as they would attack Christians.
The problem is not religion. It is the Albanian political goal of self-rule as opposed to continuted Serbian sovereignty. Add in the Kosovo position in Serb heritage, old ethnic rivalries and recent ethnic violence and the problem gets even thornier.
But this I guarantee you. A solution to the Kosovo problem, besides having to provide basic individual rights for all citizens, has to account for Serb heritage, Albanian demographics, Serb legal jurisdiction over Kosovo, and Kosovar Albanian demands for self-rule.
You think the problem is a Muslim-Christian one. Not only do the facts not support your premise, but any course of action designed to solve Kosovo based on that premise would be a waste of time and resources. Which is why nobody serious about the issue--either Serb or Albanian or international--is approaching the problem that way.
In Albania, yes, but I do not believe the same is true of Kosovo.
Just like Serbia with Nedic, the Albanians had a puppet government although they did not have a home-grown fascist movement such as the Serbian "Zbor".
Now, DTA, what about these guys:
Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps der SS
You can read a little bit more about Serb collaborationist and SS forces here.
Mark...
I think, you didn't answer my question...and honestly I didn't ask what he did in South America for Reagan...
So...how comes that William Walker, a honorary member of the NAAC, was the first one who broke the news that there was a "massacre on civilians" by the serbian forces...???
hmmmmmmmm....What do you think, how much money did he get for his "fair" analyzis of the incident from his fellow brothers of the NAAC...???
If you are not ready to put 1 and 1 together, we did...!!!!
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