Buchanan Asks, "What Do We Offer the World?"

WND.com ^ | 05-19-04 | Buchanan, Patrick J.

[E Rocc]

The claim by "cultural conservatives" that morals are somehow universal is, beyond being just plain wrong,...

Some moral values are consistent among cultures, such as not committing murder, theft, assault, or fraud. They can better be described as "ethics".

This looks like a contradiction to me. All you've done is called "morals," "ethics." In reality, there is no difference.

The distinction between those things seen as universally wrong and those which are not is clear. The former have victims.

-Eric

[MEG33]

The Constitution says there will be no code in films as there used to be in the 30s and 40s. It was imposed then because the films were against the accepted moral beliefs of our citizens..

We are now constitutionally free to view pornography in a movie theater....Freedom of speech and dissent has been broadly expanded...Guess which movies make the the most money in America..not R rated or X rated ones..We still have more people wanting to see less porn and glorification of filth.

[azhenfud]

"Attacking typing or spelling errors diminishes the discussion.."

You're right, it does.

vaudine,
I owe you the courtesy of an apology.

[E Rocc]

Some moral values are consistent among cultures, such as not committing murder, theft, assault, or fraud. They can better be described as "ethics". "Moral" considerations involving eating, drinking, smoking, entertainment, attire, consensual sex, etc. vary from culture to culture. In a free nation, it's best for government to butt out of those.

I strongly disagree. Morality crosses cultural lines as well as national borders. There is Good and Evil and they have nothing to do with culture, customs, race, gender or anything like that. There are good and moral Muslims and immoral and bad Christians & Jews. We're in a war, not so much between cultures/countries as it is between Good and Evil, a spiritual war that starts off seeming like a secular war between competing cultures. America is fundamentally Good but needs to work hard on becoming more moral in order to win this war. This could be our longest and last war.

What we need to do is stop allowing people like Buchanan and the other cultural collectivists to define things which are by no means universal as "universal morals". It cheapens the really important morals.

Lyndie England allegedly did some things which most would consider "indecent" away from any prisoners. That's not a matter of morality, but a matter of military discipline. Buchanan would make the assertion that one inevitably leads to the other. That's not only false but dangerously so.

-Eric

[Junior_G]

Guess which movies make the the most money in America..not R rated or X rated ones..We still have more people wanting to see less porn and glorification of filth.

Those movies make less money because they're age-restricted, thankfully. Not necessarily because less people want to see them.

[Aquinasfan]

You need to work on your reading comprehension, then. The original post quite clearly separated out a set of "ethics" that is universal to all viable cultures (e.g. prohibitions on theft and assault) from a larger set of "morals", some of which are not universal (e.g. prohibitions on drinking alcohol).

Read his post and my post again. He just decided that "morals" aren't "ethics." Kind of silly.

[ninenot]

But Buchanan's insistence on the National Interests of the United States of America is what earned him the "anti-Semite" appellation.

Let's not kid ourselves about that.

[E Rocc]

Wrong.

"Morals" are defined by the Judaeo-Christian tradition, principally the 10 Commandments.

"Traditions" and "disciplines" involve eating, drinking and some conventions regarding dress, attitude, speaking, etc.

"Ethics" is the science of applying universal moral norms to practical situations.

There's nothing universal about the Ten Commandments as a whole, either in this nation or worldwide. Parts of the Commandments codify some of those nearly universal rules we were discussing. Others are simply religious rules. Indeed, the Bill of Rights protects the right to violate at least three of them.

-Eric

[ninenot]

"...the former have victims..."

I think you're attempting to clear the air on the definitions a bit--but be careful. Many have claimed that prostitution is a "victimless" crime.

There are some immoralities which APPEAR to be victimless.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

In the 1920's, swing bands were considered an example of moral decay. Now we look back on that and say, well it was the music that the parents were offended by, or it was a different time. But was that it?

Yes, I am offended by the vuglar language in Rap Music, but am I offended by the themes of sexuality and drug use? If so, shouldn't I be offended by the themes of sexuality and drinking in Country Music? Or early Jazz?

The morals of this nation have always been in question by sincere Christians. From Johnathan Edwards and Cotton Mather to Pat Robertson and Billy Graham, the concern for our nations soul have been heard through the ages. This doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate concern and fight on our hands, but the handwringing and "Woe unto us!" attitude is akin to crying "Wolf!" repeatedly. If Glen Miller didn't bring us to ruin, and Elvis didn't, and the Beatles didn't, and Jimi Hendrix didn't, and KISS didn't, and Marilyn Manson didn't, why would anyone believe that Brittany Spears will?

Getting a clear perspective on what is and what isn't a true threat to Western Culture is attained by examining the history of the Culture and what has and hasn't been real threats in the past.

Standing with Islam to face down a perverted Army Private is typical Buchanan. Run off the cliff to escape the wolf only he can see.

[E Rocc]

"...the former have victims..."

I think you're attempting to clear the air on the definitions a bit--but be careful. Many have claimed that prostitution is a "victimless" crime.

There are some immoralities which APPEAR to be victimless.

In it's purest form, it is victimless. Since it's an illegal business, there's a lot of extortion of the participants, which is what turns them into victims.

-Eric

[ninenot]

I think that morals and ethics are NOT the same.

Morals are defined by the 10 Commandments, which are congruent with Natural Law.

Ethics is the science of applying morals to practical situations, IIRC.

[ninenot]

Sorry, your take on morality is not right. There is a 'universal morality,' it is enshrined in the 10 Commandments, and those Commandments are congruent with Natural Law.

All societies abhor the murder of innocents, abhor adultery, theft, false swearing, and adherence to gods which are secondary or false. One can match point-for-point the commonality.

Mosaic Law is partially distinct from the Big 10. Certain dietary presecriptions, etc., were practical guides which had to do with health--and those which were not health-related (no refrigeration, no pasteurization, etc.) were disciplinary.

[rdb3]

But Buchanan's insistence on the National Interests of the United States of America is what earned him the "anti-Semite" appellation.

Let's not kid ourselves about that.

Oh, puhleeze! Buchanan has a well-deserved reputation as an anti-Semite. He goes after Israel consistently, when he could use other nations that receive aid from us as an example. But he never does that.

But, here, let's go to Buchanan's record:

Buchanan referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory." (St. Louis Post Dispatch, 10/20/90)

During the Gulf crisis: "There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and its 'amen corner' in the United States." ("McLaughlin Group," 8/26/90)

In a 1977 column, Buchanan said that despite Hitler's anti-Semitic and genocidal tendencies, he was "an individual of great courage...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path." (The Guardian, 1/14/92)

Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist concoction.

Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was "running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87)

Buchanan was vehement in pushing President Reagan -- despite protests -- to visit Germany's Bitburg cemetery, where Nazi SS troops were buried. At a White House meeting, Buchanan reportedly reminded Jewish leaders that they were "Americans first" -- and repeatedly scrawled the phrase "Succumbing to the pressure of the Jews" in his notebook. Buchanan was credited with crafting Ronald Reagan's line that the SS troops buried at Bitburg were "victims just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps." (New York Times, 5/16/85; New Republic, 1/22/96)

After Cardinal O'Connor criticized anti-Semitism during the controversy over construction of a convent near Auschwitz, Buchanan wrote: "If U.S. Jewry takes the clucking appeasement of the Catholic cardinalate as indicative of our submission, it is mistaken. When Cardinal O'Connor of New York seeks to soothe the always irate Elie Wiesel by reassuring him 'there are many Catholics who are anti-Semitic'...he speaks for himself. Be not afraid, Your Eminence; just step aside, there are bishops and priests ready to assume the role of defender of the faith." (New Republic, 10/22/90)

The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic Agency, 2/21/96.)

In his September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan declared: "Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free." (ADL Report, 1994)

Need I say more?

[cicero's_son]

I agree with Solzhenitzyn and Buchanan - The main threat to America is from inside.

I agree. And it mystifies me as to why so many conservatives fail to see (or admit) the broader point of Buchanan's article. After all, we are the ones who have been making this point for decades.

It wasn't too long ago that conservatives could all agree that moral decay, relativism, and various forms of "personal liberation" were a grave threat not only to the US but to Western Civilization as a whole.

Just because we're fighting a war against terrorists doesn't mean that we should suddenly cede our culture to the likes of Charles Krauthammer, in whose mind the West's greatest achievement is evidently "sexual liberation." What a freak!

[11th Earl of Mar]

Krauthammer saw anti-Semitic happenings from the Passion of Christ - so much for his acumen.

No, YOU brought up the subject of evaluating people's acumen.

Still searching for Buchanan columns condemning Arab anti-semitism?

[Thorin]

In the public school distrcit in which my sister's children live, the junior high boys and girls need to be put on separate buses because oral sex on the school buses was so rampant. It you want to believe that this was going on in the 30s, 40s, and 50s as well, go right ahead.

[cicero's_son]

Interesting how some folks' resentment of Buchanan is so all-consuming that we now have conservatives trying to argue that American culture hasn't significantly declined from what it used to be...all because they don't want to agree with Buchanan!

Great point. I think there are some conservatives on this board who would gladly start arguing in favor of higher taxes, more government spending, cuts in the military, and affirmative action.....if only Pat Buchanan argued against them.

What power this man has over some people's thinking!

[steve-b]

There is a 'universal morality,' it is enshrined in the 10 Commandments

Not so. Some of the Ten Commandments (e.g. "Thou shalt not do murder") coincide with universal morality (the code of ethics common to all viable societies). Others of the Ten Commandments (e.g. "Thou shalt not make a graven image") are specific cultural taboos which may or may not be emulated by others.

[11th Earl of Mar]

we now have conservatives trying to argue that American culture hasn't significantly declined from what it used to be

No, we agree it has declined.

But Buchanan's suggestion that we save our nation by standing arm in arm with Islamists is not the answer.