Posted on 05/14/2004 9:49:55 PM PDT by neverdem
I agree; there are no easy answers. I know parents far more neglegent than those of Harris and Klebold whose offspring have exceeded society's expectations.
I don't think the Harris' or Klebolds deserved the children they had. No one does. I just believe that as the parents of minor children who plan and carry out a mass murder, these people need to accept some level of responsibility.
JAMES DOBSON AND HIS WIFE fasted and prayed--either every Thursday or every Friday for their kids.
I could, to a point, say yes,
IN THEORY.
I've just NEVER seen it.
And,
on the other hand, were that to be as true as some make it out to be, then The Bible would be lying when it says . . . train up a child in the way that child should go, [taking into account that child's nature, bent, personality, preferences, skills, abilities, deficits etc] AND when he is old, he WILL NOT DEPART FROM IT.
I have seen abundant evidence of that.
Now, true, many parents have done above average jobs. Yet, if one super sensitive, super needy, demanding or 'cross-ways with self/life/earth/and society type kid doesn't get
SUFFICIENT
whatever it takes from the parents, then there will be trouble.
But I have always found that persistently such kids HAVE BEEN unnecessarily and persistently provoked to wrath and usually also hoplessness in a LIST of ways--even by way above average parents.
OUCH. My heart went out to you reading your post. Perhaps I misconstrued it. But it sounds like there's been trainloads of pain back there somewhere. IF so and you ever want to run any of it out with me on FREEPMAIL or whatever, please feel free.
YES! YOU DO KNOW THE ANSWER.
It's right here:
Or, it could be that, as children, they just didn't respond to the cubbyhole they were slammed into by a father who worked 18-hour days, 6-day weeks, to build this massive church. Kids know when they're being chucked aside. And maybe a half-hour every day for a quick devotional just wasn't enough. ("Here's the Word of God, kid. Now get out of my face, while I build my church.") How's the old saying go? You can fool a fool, but you can't kid a kid.
No doubt.
nada, zip. No doubt.
I don't even have to know more than that.
Actually, as I knew at the time, the bold, color, large font stuff was stuff I was pontificating on, out of my own initiative. I wasn't per se arguing those points with anyone. They were merely passionately held convictions I had/have in the broad ball park being touched on.
ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER seems to be the preferred term currently, according to the text I last taught from:
You wrote:The idea probably frightens many people that psychopaths are born, or at least develop at a time when blame cannot be put on the parents. Their particular fantasies and conduct may, though not always, reflect their upbringing, but they will always be psychopaths.
I'm not at all sure that the current level of research would be near so adamant on that score.
INVITATION TO PSYCHOLOGY 2nd Ed Carole Wade, Carol Tavris
pp347, 348, 349:
"Throughout history, societies have recognized and feared the few members in their midst who lack all human connection to anyone else--who can cheat, con, and kill without flinching. In the 1830s these individuals were said to be afflicted with "moral insanity," and in the twentieth century they came to be called "psychopaths" or "sociopaths." The DSM, trying to avoid such emotionally charged terms, refers to antisocial personality disorder (APD). By any name, this condition is fascinating and frightening because of the great harm these people inflict on their victims and on society. "
"According to the DSM, people diagnosed with APD must meet at least three of seven criteria: (1) They repeatedly break the law; (2) they are deceitful, using aliases and lies to con others; (3) they are impulsive and unable to plan ahead; (4) they repeatedly get into physical fights or assaults; (5) they show reckless disregard for their own safety or that of others; (6) they are constantly irresponsible, failing to meet obligations to others; and (7) they lack remorse for their actions that harm others."
"Lacking conscience and remorse, people with APD can lie, seduce, and manipulate others and then drop them without a qualm. They can steal your heart and your wallet in a minute. If caught in a lie or a crime, they may seem sincerely sorry and promise to make amends, but it is all an act. Some are sadistic, able to kill a pet, a child or a random adult without a twinge of regret. Others direct their energies into con games or career advancement, abusing other people emotionally or economically rather than physically (Robins, Tipp, & Przybeck, 1991)."
Antisocial personality disorder occurs in only about 3 percent of all males and less than 1 percent of all females. Yet people with APD may account for more than half of all serious crimes committed in the United States (Hare, 1993). Terrie MOffitt (1993), who observed the development of APD over time, reported that remorselessness and lawbreaking start early and take different forms at different ages: "Biting and hitting at age 4, shoplifting and truancy at age 10, selling drugs and stealing cars at age 16, robbery and rape at age 22, and fraud and child abuse at age 30 . . . [people with APD] lie at home, seal from shops, cheat at school, fight in bars, and embezzle at work."
"Researchers studying APD, like those studying other mental disorders, are investigating possible biological and social factors that contribute to antisocial personalities.
. . .
1 Abnormalities in the central nervous system Antisocial individuals do not respond physiologically to punishments the way other people do; this may be why they can behave fearlessly in situations that would scare others to death. Normally, when a person is anticipating danger, pain, or punishment, the electrical conductance of the skin changes, a classically conditioned response that indicates anxiety or fear. But people with APD are slow to develop such responses, which suggests that they are unable to feel the anxiety necessary for learning that their actions will have unpleasant consequences (see Figure 10.3) [not included for this post]. Their inability to feel emotional arousal--empathy, guilt, fear of punishment, anxiety under stress--suggests some abnormality in the brain and central nervous system (Hare, 1965, 1993; Lykken, 1995; Raine, 1996).
. . . "2 Problems with impulse control. People who are antisocial, hyperactive, addicted, or impulsive may share a common inherited disorder involving an inability to control responses to frustration and provocation (Luengo et al., 1994; Raine, 1996). The biological children of parents with antisocial personality disorder, substance-abuse problems or impulsivity disorders are at greater than normal risk of developing these disorders themselves, even when these children are reared by others (Nigg & Goldsmith, 1994).
3 Brain abnormalities. Psychopaths show abnormalities in left-hemisphere activation when they are processing information, a fact that apepars to be related to their impaired ability to regulate their behavior (Bernstein et al., 2000). Damage to the prefrontal cortex may also be implicated in some cases of APD. One PET-scan study found that cold-blooded "predatory" murderers had less brain activity in this area than did men who murdered in the heat of passion or controls who hadn't murdered anybody (Raine et al, 1998). These brain abnormalities may result from genes, birth complications, or physical abuse and neglect. High percentages of violent teenagers--those who have been arrested for vicious assault, rape, or murder, in contrast to those who just get into fistfights or normal teenage trouble--have a history of physical neglect, battering, and head injury (Lewis, 1981, 1992; Milner & McCanne, 1991; Moffitt, 1993).
4 Vulnerability-stress explanations. Brain damage or genetic predispositions alone are rarely enough to create a violent or antisocial individual. But according to the vulnerability-stress model of APD, when biological vulnerability is combined with physical abuse, parental neglect, lack of love and contact comfort, environmental stresses and a larger culture that rewards ruthlessness and hard-heartedness, individuals are far more likely to develop the disorder. [Qx emphasis]
"For example, a study of more than 4,000 boys, followed from birth to age 18, found that many of those who became violent offenders had experienced two risk factors: birth complications that caused damage to the prefrontal cortex, and early maternal rejection. Their mothers had not wanted the pregnancy, and the babies were put in institutional care for at least four months during their first year. Although only 4.4 percent of the boys had both risk factors, these boys accounted for 18 percent of all violent crimes committed by the sample as a whole (Raine, Brenan, & Mednick, 1994)."
"It seem, then, that several routes lead to the development of antisocial personality disorder: neurological abnormalities; a genetic disposition toward impulsivity, which leads to rule breaking and crime; brain damage, parental neglect or rejection; and a cultural environment that rewards and fosters antisocial traits. These multiple origins may explain why rates of antisocial personality disorder vary across societies and history." [end of text excerpts.
--------------
Qx comment:
I don't think anyone has mentioned another aspect which I have observed to usually bear a significant portion of the etiology. The Bible says the sins of the fathers can be visited upon the sons to the 3rd and 4th generation afterward. This could be by demonic oppression or possession following down through the generations. Certainly Antisocial Personality Disordered people are quite in step with satan's work of stealing, destroying and killing.
Usually extended group prayer and fasting and deliverance is necessary in many such cases.
Then, another route of being handed down through the generations is the habits, stinkin thinkin, stupid actions etc. that parents pass down to their children.
I guess I've personally not ran across any APD people who were so strictly on genetic or brain damaged causes.
Certainly I've seen more than I'd liked to have seen of those triggered by parental neglect, lack of love and lack of contact comfort/affection.
The studies of learned helplessness come to mind. The way one triggers learned helplessness/hopelessness in a dog, is to teach the dog to turn left, say, for a food pellet. Then teach him to turn right. All the while shocking it for contrary moves.
Then after several iterations of different behaviors, begin to shock it irregularly no matter what it does. Eventually, the animal will feel damned if he does and damned if he doesn't and will cower in the corner. In my experience APD's have been THAT frustrated and often from similarly destructive negative double binds from one or more parent--but they have a very different response than cowering in the corner.
Anyway--I think APDS are a very special case. And a lot of children not quite as horribly mangled as APD's can be also almost as challenging to rear well. I don't make a lot of heavy pronouncements about super tough cases.
I do say, I've seen a lot of super tough cases where parents paid incredible prices to help the kids to very good results. And other parents didn't to horrible results.
They say the mind is the second thing to go. I would have bet anything that the Matrix was released just a couple of years ago. Mea culpa.
Awesome duty you do.
Incredible insights.
I agree.
Thanks tons.
They 'lawyered up' on the FIRST night???
And, I don't have a great deal of EXTENDED patience any more with parents who are mostly selfish and lazy and blame everything on the child or circumstances or school or whatever. YES, all those things are horrid. But not as horrid as under Rome 2,000 years ago. >>
I'm with you there Quix. I would not be home with my children if I didn't think being here and the time and attention matters to their development. Believe me, we are on the same track. I think what annoys me and others is that the job is made so much harder by the outside influences, but to some degree they have always been there haven't they?
I much appreciate your heartfelt response. I hope you have found some solutions for your autistic child. >>
We are getting there. Fortunately, he has always been very affectionate so that has been a positive. He's maturing and things are changing. He is 4 and I'd say he is functioning at about a 2-3 yr old emotionally still with little speech though. He's started that defiance that a 2 yr old has--he obviously understands us now(which he did not before) but chooses to look you in the eye and disobey--typical for a 2 yr old's development. It still is work to engage him--speech is always initiated by us and it is easy if you aren't paying attention to let the little things with him get lost in the shuffle since he won't speak up. He's getting more assertive physically, but not verbally. Like I said, we are getting there and although I love my son, we are praying to God this next son due soon will not have these issues. We shall see and deal with whatever comes I suppose.
Take care
YOU ARE SUCH AN AWESOME PARENT!
CONGRATULATIONS! PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR FAITHFULNESS!
And yea that your autistic son is affectionate. I don't know how skilled at behavior modification you are. But you can use something he does a LOT to reinforce something else you want to increase in frequency. for example, if he likes reading books a lot or some such, you can pair X minutes (say 10-15 or even 20-30 minutes) with 5 or 10 minutes of verbal or written or some such dialogue or even just with interactive time of some social skills building sort.
You may be aware that you can probably prayerfully watch his face and body language enough to discern with Holy Spirit's help which moments are likely to be more teachable toward verbal communication and then set contingencies which really reinforce such moments. If you see him slipping into such a state, you could suddenly say something like, Son, IF in the next 15 minutes, you say 25 words to me/ start a conversation about some favorite topic/ ask me 3 questions (or some such) then, I will get you a new book; let you watch 60 minutes of your favorite TV or give you a back massage . . . etc.
Anyway--unasked for input, I realize so feel free to toss it if it doesn't fit.
Admiration for what you've already achieved and prayers for even greater.
Quix, you are very sweet, but I by no means am an awesome parent. i have my shortcomings as does anyone doing this job. Patience is a big issue for me as well as not overreacting--quick to judge--it is something I work on daily.
As for my son, i appreciate your suggestions. I do not think he will be responsive to say 15 words--that is definitely way beyond his capacity right now, but we usually get such great contact when we actually can figure out his needs or what he is saying. You say the word he says and he'll look you right in the eye and smile so big.
He's such a rascal and he so badly wants to communicate, it just does not come easy to him at all. And we both are very active with him. Try and insert ourselves in his fave activities and ask him lots of question while he is manipulating items.
As a followup, we went DQ after my daughter's soccer game on Sat and for the first time, he actually seemed like one of the kids, he was laughing with them, staying close to the other boys, etc. He was actually interacting not only with peers, but kids older than him--nonverbally, but he got so much more input just by asserting himself physically and making eye contact and smiling. It was so wonderful to see.
I don't know what the baby will mean for him. I hope having a little brother will be a positive influence for him. Perhaps he'll want to grow up a little so that he can be the big guy. Yet to be seen.
I still say from decades of observations . . .
You ARE an AWESOME PARENT.
I, of course, had no idea his verbal level. IF 1-2 words is a stretch, then start there, as you evidently are. I'm sure you know that small increment baby steps are much more workable with such a child than too big a jump.
I suspect the baby will be a real turn-on for him in the sense that--both are largely nonverbal and both respond extensively to touch. I suspect his self-esteem and fulfillment in life could come from doing a number of the baby chores as he felt up to it. He would realize at new levels how much you respect, TRUST, appreciate and include him and WHAT HE HAS TO OFFER. He must feel that he doesn't have as much or the same balance of things to offer others that most other people have.
Just my hypothesis. Mileage may vary!
Thanks tons for your kind comments.
I'm curious . . . And, for anyone else with an autistic child, perhaps some of the following could be useful.
How much/many artistic efforts have you exposed him to, led him in?
What are his 'bents' in such matters, areas?
Even if he's just at the coloring book stage, coloring together with an older person could be real productive. The older person could say something like: "I'm going to color this man's shirt red because I think he's angry about not having the ball." Or some such. And then maybe ask your son what color does your son FEEL like. Or what color is happy? Or what color is peaceful, or comfortable. Anything to stretch his expressive vocabulary at all.
I don't know how many resource$ you have. But you might be able to even traid tutoring or some such. I think, in your shoes, I'd likely want to find a kid that was enough older to be seen by him as a bit of a leader but young enough for your son to mostly identify with. And, who was significantly down the road toward being an artist or whatever. And, who was matched temperament, personality wise well with your son.
I forget the age of your son. If he's 4-6, that could be a real challenge. I am just convinced that if your son had some means to express himself through doing--producing a product with his hands--it would greatly help to strengthen his self-respect etc. And it is likely that in the intensity of working on an external-to-himself task, with someone he admired, respected, looked up to--he would have a lot of urge to communicate verbally that could be productive.
I don't think it matters a lot what the craft sort of task was. He could even experiment with a wide range. I don't know if you have HOBBY LOBBY nearby but walking him through something like that and seeing what attracted his attention might be a worthy thing to do.
I wish I remembered his age. If he is 4 years old, it might be nothing more complicated than trucks and cars and army figures in a sand box. Or paper mache creations. Or the polymer clay kinds of things. It might be you could find a teen that would ENJOY working with him--someone planning to go into early childhood education etc, if no one suitable his own age was available. Even a teen gal would be OK.
Of course, ideally, his dad would be the one to explore craft things with. I'm just aware of how busy dads tend to be I'm probably skeptical that would be possible.
Ideally it would be at least weekly if not 2-3 times per week for whatever his attention span would tend to be for such a thing. I suppose a college student would be a good possibility. The more skillful, perceptive, intuitive and experienced the mentor, the more they might be able to accomplish.
They could take say soldier figures in the sand box and set up a variety of social contingencies and then ask your son--should soldier A do this or do that? And then act out the alternatives and let your son choose. That's not too distant from being able to express such verbally. It would at least build up some metaphors he could refer to at least in his own head and perhaps act out in situations he wanted to communicate more in.
I'm not real up on this. But I suspect there's software available to help strengthen verbal areas of kids brains with such weaknesses. One should be able to Google for it. Certainly playing any comptuer game with him which involved social contexts and contingencies would be a benefit.
You might also experiment with sign language or even your own touch code of your own creation. I suspect you could come up with 25-30 codes that he would pick up much more rapidly than he may be likely to pick up verbal/word codes.
For example touching his right ear might mean speak louder and his left ear softer. Whatever. Doesn't matter. Just so it could be a consistent code between him and family members.
Then the family members when using the code would also use the associated words. It could be another bridge toward verbal expression.
Anyway--just brainstorming pontifications. Toss if not useful, of course!
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