Study calls for cut in submarine fleet

Perhaps you forgot about the Korean war? We are willing to expend blood to defned allies. Of course, dettering such a war is far better. Hence we cannot slash our sub fleet. Why is Taiwan different from Japan? Is it not a democratic ally? Furthermore, the best way to defend japan is to stop China cold at Taiwan.

You are absolutely correct sir. The war to defend our allies in the Korean war is a historical fact, as is the fact we faced the Chinese hordes and won (some may disagree with the win, but the fact that South Korea thrives is evident to the fact that we won .....albeit some generals did say it might have been prudent to nuke China ....but that is an amorphous debate if ever there was any).

Anyways, we were willing to defend Korea. However, honestly, I ask you to tell me if you think the American public would accept KIAs in the order of the Korean war today? Defending a nation like Taiwan, which while I agree is a great ally (and in my opinion worthy of defending), just doesn't have the (how can I put this) 'public awareness level' among most of the public. And also, I would ask you, how many congressmen do you think would have the integrity and fortitude to support such a war with the premise of protecting Taipei from Beijing? The War on Terror was one thing ....namely because any person who had red blood flowing in them knew that those Jihadists needed to be brought to their knees and destroyed ....it was a necessary war that did not require any persuasion. However, Taiwan is a different issue (not on the part of necessity but the part of persuasion).

My premise was not that we should not defend Taiwan. No, Taiwan is not only an ally but a constant bastion against China.

My paramount observation was that if China could find a way to breach the Strait, then the only option would be for the president to declare a 'not-war' (basically sending troops, but not declaring war since that would require Congressional approval ....and very few Democrats and Republicans would go with that). And any president who did that would be signing off his tenure ....and depending on how things went potentially risking impeachment.

The whole Chinese strategy is that when they are ready, their assymetrical capability will not be directed towards defeating the US. That would be next to impossible (I would say impossible ...but I don't like using the word. But if I did i would say impossible). Their whole strategy is to offer the possibility that we shall suffer losses that we have not seen since the Vietnam war, and losses that would cause our public to raise a huge hue and cry. And think how the media were reporting the Iraq war, making every single death seem like we were 'losing' the war. Now, imagine how they would potray a war against China?

That was my point Rmlew. Not that Taiwan is not worth defending (it is), but that for us to go to war with them would require a president, a congress and a public with b@!!s of solid steel and brass .....and sadly only the prez, a small fraction of congress (in this scenario), and much less than half of the nation (if you take into account almost all democrats, and those conservatives who do not perceive Taiwan as worthy of expending American life). That was my point.

I hope I explained it adequately.

I don't disgree with your logic. We have become soft. However, i do believe that you did not address my point about detterence.
I sincerely doubt that we would ever land marines at Taipei to repel a Chinese invasion. However, we have depoloyed fleets to deter it and have armed the ROC in the past. A CVBG and a few subs work nicely. Selling Taiwan virtually whatever they want would also work.

Since there's a few second rate powers with fleet ballistic missile subs I'd say the first class powers are the ones with the star destroyers and anti-matter weapons.../sarc

Submarines' value was in their ability to remain hidden. With today's technology, that is no longer something that can be counted on.

A Hawkeye, flying off a US carrier, can detect targets within a 200 square mile radius -- I assumed that includes detecting submarines.

Further, a recent documentary showed a frigate capable of firing torpedos to destroy underwater targets. (Yet another task once isolated to submarines is taken over by water level crafts).

My son recently served on the USS Enterprise and I was privileged to enjoy a three-day "Tiger Cruise" on board his carrier.

When his battle group enters potentially hostile waters, he is as safe as if he were at home in his own bed. (Barring any repeat of the Cole attack).

On a side note -- when his carrier returned to port, we returned to his ship the next day. From the flight deck, we took pictures of a sub that had just docked in the next slip. Upon leaving the dock, I spied a submariner hanging upside down doing repairs on the sub, so I moved closer and started filming. Some guy comes up tells me that I'm not allowed to film or take pictures of the sub. I say "o-k" (I had no problem with this) and he stands and watches while I rewind and erase the film. My son comes over to see what's going on, and tells the guy the sub shouldn't be there in the first place, that 1500 sailors and their families just came back from Iraq and everyone would be taking pictures -- why weren't they in their own slip at the other end of the dock. The sub guy said that repairs were being made at their dock, so they had to come here.

It was an interesting experience.

I agree with you on the deterrence part. And even without that the Mainland would currently find it exceedingly hard to take over Taiwan. The Strait would be daunting enough, and that is not considering that the Taiwanese forces basically train to degrade and destroy any Chinese force heading for the island. And if we give them Aegis capability they shall be even more able to smite the Chinese.

And I think that is the current logic we are employing. Basically making Taiwan strong enough to take care of its backyard, because I doubt we would be steaming to help them should the fat hit the fire full-blast.