Posted on 05/14/2004 1:26:56 PM PDT by txradioguy
Or was enjoying herself having sex with multiple people in pictures shown to Congressmen Wednesday.
The RATS were probably more shocked...SHOCKED over her sex pics than any of the pictures of the soldiers humiliating the prisoners.
IF she had morals she would have REFUSED to participate! And reported this to higher ups.
There's one of the guys going to Courts Marshal over this that is quoted today as saying that if their CO or other superiors had known what they were doing they'd have gotten fried for it. (I'm paraphrasing) So much for the abuse going to the "highest levels" claim.
To do so, as England and her fellow soldiers say they have done, and then to dismiss their own responsibility in carrying out those orders is technically no different than an SS camp commander supervising the shoveling of humans into ovens, and then justifying his actions as those of an obedient soldier.It is different. Englund had even less of an excuse than the SS troops. The Germans likely would have been shot and their families sent to the camps for disobeying, but our military has a procedure for people to follow when given an unlawful order, with no real fear of reprisal if the soldier is right. Chain of command, IG, congressman, it's highly unlikely she would have been punished for failing to do as ordered. If there were reprisal (which would be less than death), those above her would be all the more punished when it's all over.
My guess is that one or more of her multiple "boy friends," who might out-rank her, suggested vague things to her, in a very social way, which she's now miscasting as "an order" regarding what to do. I have the impression she's also trying to say as little as possible while trying not to lie wholesale.
General court-martial sounds about right.
I'll also guess what's his name, the supposed crap-shoot sperm-donor "ends up" backing out from marrying her.
HF
"If so, the softening procedure went far beyond what it was supposed to be."
This guys needs to ride convoy escort around Fallujah. Then he might reconsider how important it is to extract information from prisoners.
Watch out...the latent feminists here on FR are bound to attack you if you criticize Pfc. England without also specifically slamming the MALE soldiers involved in the kinkiness. I know--I made the mistake of saying she seemed to have a lack of morals (gasp!) and had several feminists jump all over my case because I neglected to mention the men.
Holy Crap! That's not the same Marine Corps I belonged to...You sure this was the USMC??
Shakespeare said it best: "Much ado about nothing!"
You are SO right. Those of us with military experience understand that it is not unusual to defy an unlawful order. We were all TRAINED to do so!! THAT was also an ORDER!!
This is in comparison a frivolous example. I (as a female company commander) confronted an Infantry Major on battalion staff who had ordered a platoon in my company to cease their Christmas Party. They had reluctantly complied, I directly nixed his unlawful interference. He countered with the threat that the Bn Commander was going to relieve me. I said, that is up to him; in the mean time, don't YOU interfere in the command of MY company. (My standing up to him was more important than I knew at the time, because there were other times he tried to send elements of my company on bogus missions -- by then we were all on to him.)
The point is: you get the courage to deny unlawful orders from the training every member in the Armed Forces gets. You simply take a deep breath and speak up!
Congratulations for doing the right thing!
But not too shocked to forward cc. immediately to the porn server at Chappaqua.
Bet Slick's got his own set already, 8/12 X 10 glossy.
Well, there's your first violation of Army regs right there. What the hell? Don't these people know that churches were invented?
I agree. Personally IMHO after a year in Iraq...I don't really feel sorry for what happened to the Iraqi's in that prison. It's not like they were jaywalkers or shoplifters.
That's the price she paid by putting herself in the picture.
If it was some knuckleheaded guy who was striking poses in these little Polaroids, we wouldn't be talking about the female troops, now would we?
Don't worry Choose...I got your back on this one. I have a sopbox ready to preach from if they get too obnoxious.
Looks like garden-variety grabassing to me .... the Children's Hour.....if there was some intent to interrogate, whoever was in charge is awfully damn quiet.
The relieved brigadier, Karpinski, pointed the finger at a female two-star from some intelligence-related command who has already been rotated back to Fort Huachuca. That's still not enough to connect the dots.
I can see why someone would say to himself, okay, instead of doing all this heavy lifting with every single Bin Laden wannabe who comes through here, why don't we just take some snapshots of jihadi types having their masculine Arab pride taken away by a 4-foot-9 female PFC and let the fresh detainees absorb the picures' import, personally for each detainee, if he wants to continue to resist cooperation?
But nobody has stood up and said yet that yes, that's what they decided to do, in order to get quick breakdowns and cooperation from people who had time-critical information.
Perhaps "demoralizing" the prisoners to get their cooperation was exactly what this shambles was all about.
On the other hand, I've still got a layoff bet on undertrained, underled guards just messing around with prisoners to relieve the boredom.
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