Replace the hopeless Humvee, Pentagon chiefs are urged

telegraph.co.uk ^ | 28/04/2004 | David Rennie

[Robe]

The New Improved Old Reliable(Infantry Fighting Vehicle Light (IFVL)), with a 25mm Bushmaster Chain Gun, external fuel tanks, and spall shields

[lepton]

HMMWVs aren't APCs. Treating it like one is silly.

The M113 is a pretty sad APC - though it does stop 7.62*39. It is vulnerable to a whole host of other things, and causes vulnerabilities like the "turtle" complex, and a lack of vision (relative to the HMMWV. After the first few dozen, we'd be better off with armored cars.

[archy]

you know how many Freepers flamed me over these last 2 months when I pretty much posted the same thing this article said about their beloved humvee??

Bad Destro. No cookie. Now off to your corner.

[Gefreiter]

I was a support guy in 2 Bde HHCs and 1 Bn HHC. I drove M577s, the command post carrier version of the '113, which means the cargo area was tall enough to stand in and the walls were steel shelving for radios, COMSEC stuff, maps, etc etc.

Yes they are very noisy and slow. Not only do the tracks damage roads, roads also damage track! They are not armored beyond the steel they're made of. They'll stop small arms- probably- but I'm not optimisitc about heavy crew-served machine guns or RPGs. Even if the steel stops the heavy round or rocket, it would likely spall the interior. And if an IED blows your drive sprocket, you're in deep doo-doo.

BUT- is all that better than tooling around town in a fiberglass convertible? Probably!

[Carry_Okie]

Truly scary, Meyers' tap dancing is unworthy of a non-com.

[archy]

The M113 is a pretty sad APC - though it does stop 7.62*39.

From the 16-inch barrel of an AK47 or AKM, yes. From the 22-inch barrel of an RPK Squad Automatic Weapon, not at all, at not with a 90º deflection, even with ball ammunition.

I don't know about the new Russian 5,45mm round, but I'd expect pretty similar results with an RPK74 and AK74 as well.

As for the 7,62x54mm cartridge of the SVD sniper's rifle and beltfed PK and Pecheneg machineguns, they zip right through the side armor, though the Kevlar sidewall spall liners of the M113A3 help considerably. A troop inside weariung body armor is probably pretty safe.

[SoCal Pubbie]

I hardly think that state of American engineering or manufacturing capabilities has anything to do with it. It is how the Pentagon wants to spend its money, and the political ramifications on Capital Hill. I offer no judgments as to how it should be done, only that if the will to spend the money for improvements to existing vehicles, or an all new vehicle, was there, fine designs could be churned out and excellent equipment produced.

[CatoRenasci]

Agreed. It was never meant to be an armored car equivalent or an APC equivalent. Of course, the Vietnam era ubiquitous M-113 (and variants) was replaced as an APC by the tank-wannabe Bradley, leaving us without a mass quantity, reasonably armored APC for this sort of warfare. But, as someone else pointed out, the M-113 was designed (with aluminum armor) to stop rifle and light machine gun rounds (i.e. up to .30 cal or 7.62mm NATO AP rounds) not RPG, LAW, or heavy machine gun (.50 cal or 12.7mm) rounds. To stop RPG rounds, you need a Bradley or at least an M60A1 MBT.

[Palmetto]

still, its a sad testament to the technology in american industry that we cannot have some kind of advancement in lightweight armor or composite materials to make a better military vehicle then this.

It's always easy to spot a non-engineer.

Using the phrase, "some kind of..." is a dead giveaway.

We are working at the limits of technology. In the eternal struggle between those who design weapons and those who design targets, the designers of targets rarely hold an advantage for longer than a moment.

[Darksheare]

Cookie?
Naaah.
he gets coffee, donuts, and the ever present soda before observing from the corner.
On second thought, considering my coffee, better leave off the coffee.

[oceanview]

thanks, I'll take my masters degree in it off the wall right now.

tell me why you can buy an armored mercedes or BMW right now, but our soldiers are riding around in these humvees?

advanced armor can come from R&D in both alloys, and composite materials, as well as some kind of fusion material of liquid gels sandwiched between composites. Instead, our guys don't have it, and we are talking about resurrecting Vietnam era armor.

in fact, we are NOT working anywhere near the limits of technology, that is the problem, the fact that we want to bring back vietnam era armored vehicles proves that.

[Travis McGee]

Archy, can you post some pics of the currently available 4 and 6 wheeled armored vehicles?

[Gunslingr3]

"I have roughly 700 113-series vehicles sitting pre-positioned in Kuwait,

Sounds like the ticket to me.

Why? It won't stop an RPG or 105-155mm based IED either.

[JoeSchem]

Does anyone seriously think that ANY vehicle is safe driving down the streets of Baghdad?

Note I'm not giving points for weasel words like 'relatively safe' or 'much safer.' The plain truth is that if an Iraqi insurgent fires an RPG at ANYTHING we can drive down a Baghdad street, the soldiers inside are going to die.

Ambush a US vehicle with an RPG, dissolve into the side streets and alleys. I remember learning in school about the British Red Coats who marched in the open fields while the Revolutionaries shot at them from the trees. I thought, "Who could be so stupid?" Well . . . .

[Palmetto]

thanks, I'll take my masters degree in it off the wall right now. ... tell me why you can buy an armored mercedes or BMW right now, but our soldiers are riding around in these humvees?

If you have to ask that, then I won't let the degree get in the way of my assessment.

advanced armor can come from R&D in both alloys, and composite materials, as well as some kind of fusion material of liquid gels sandwiched between composites. Instead, our guys don't have it, and we are talking about resurrecting Vietnam era armor...

The General said that the M1 can't protect its occupants from an artillery-shell IEDs. Just how do you propose to mass-produce a cheap Jeep replacement with more effective armor than an M1?

in fact, we are NOT working anywhere near the limits of technology, that is the problem, the fact that we want to bring back vietnam era armored vehicles proves that.

That's hardly proof of anything other than the fact the people are desparate to try something.

IMHO, 24-hr surveillance of heavily-trafficked areas would be more effective. Then send one dummy Humvee into Fallujah by radio control, blow it up, and then detonate a secondary explosion 15 min later (to get all the cowardly body snatchers and dancers).

[OldFog]

On amphibious capability all the Bradleys are capable of amphibious action. Not fast to set up but I'll take the armor protection over swimming capability.

[OldFog]

The armored Hummers are designed to stop fragments so any direct fire arms over 7.62 (the standard AK size) will penetrate the hummers. Keep in mind that armor goes both ways. Armor all around means less guns pointing towards the bad guys. Yeah, we're taking some casualties in these Hummers but overall we retain mobility with limited protection and combined with our other forces it's a good beast for the job that needs done.

[archy]

On amphibious capability all the Bradleys are capable of amphibious action. Not fast to set up but I'll take the armor protection over swimming capability.

Not any more. On the last round of MWOs, all the amphibious capabilities were deleted and the front splashboards were removed and sent to DRMO, for just the reason you suggest: the armor protection of those inside came first.

[Southron Patriot]

I believe this is one of the M113 vehicles stored in Kuwait in the article.

Infantry Fighting Vehicle Light (IFVL)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm

Infantry Fighting Vehicle Light (IFVL) is a light infantry fighting vehicle based on the prov en MTVL chassis and featuring a one-man stabilized turret is convertible from existing assets or available as new production. It offers the exceptional automotive performance of the MTVL chassis combined with the substantial firepower of the stabilized 25mm chaingun and 7.62mm machinegun. The vehicle is powered by a 400hp 6V53TIA electronically controlled engine driving through the latest X200-4B cross drive transmission. The IFVL uses many common M113/MTVL components that help insure high reliability, availability, and maintainability, plus a proven design, common maintenance techniques and an established logistics infrastructure. Applique armor provides the flexibility to alter the armor package as the threat level changes or technology advances. The vehicle carries a crew of two or three and up to 10 dismount soldiers. As with all M113 variants,it is roll-on/roll-off transportable on a C130.

[archy]

thanks, I'll take my masters degree in it off the wall right now.

If you have an off the wall degree in engineering, you must have gotten it at Purdue.

Go Boilermakers!