Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade

Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

[fooman]

thanks for your thoughtfull answer.

[XBob]

many thanks for the post and ping. This is the most coherent description of what is wrong that I have seen, anywhere.

you wrote: 3 - "Only problem: Roberts hasn't figured out a solution--yet."

There is another major problem - Bush and the rest of our government politicians and economists haven't figured out that this is a problem, yet, and they are continuing to exascrbate it with their idiotic policies of of out of touch economists.

[Havoc]

What you really want is a lower American standard of living overall, in exchange for some measure of American autarky, which you conflate with "sovereignty."

Hollow, decietful rhetoric. Utter nonsense. This country was doing quite well until free trade started ruining people. You're just sore because you have to be held to an ethical standard that you don't want to face. Tough crap. Would you rather face an ethical standard or a new US civil war in which the primary enemy is deemed to be guys like you. There was a lot of ivory tower slave owners shot the last time around.. Just a reminder of history. And btw, I've seen all these arguments countless times. Keep using the default talking points - they're so obvious and easy to shoot down, it causes ya'll to run off when you realize you can't win. And it apparently makes you want to hide from a public confrontation wherin your talking points might make it into full public view. If I were you, I wouldn't identify myself in public. I'm a christian; but, I know people who are out of work that would pound you guys for some of the insulting and deceitful things ya'll utter to fellow republicans. A tongue can be far more destructive than a fist; but, some would try to level the playing field - which is something that would ruin ya'll if it were done in outside countries and you had to pay real wages again. You'd still make a profit, you just wouldn't be able to use slave labor to make monstrous profits by taking dishonest and decietful advantage of people. Nobody has rights but you guys. Keep it up. Eventually, as I've noted elsewhere, the public is going to demand their pound of flesh.

[Torie]

Thanks for making my point. I appreciate it. A reply brief is not necessary.

[Torie]

By the way, Christian and Republican should be capitalized. I dissent from this lower case thingie.

[clamper1797]

Post # 63 ... you are spot on and the free traitors better take heed

[schu]

So the answer is high tariffs? How exactly do we overcome these basics issues I enumerated above?

[dimk]

>--
The huge excess supplies of labor in countries such as China and India ensure that it will be many years before labor in those countries, both skilled and unskilled, will be paid the value of its marginal product.
>--

this by itself is a fallacy.. Value of marginal product IS what is paid for the labor to produce it, there is no inherent value. What happened is that with globalization price of most of the labor on the open market went down, WAY down. Excess supply means that product(labor) is way overpriced, market(when government doesn't stick its nose into it) corrects oversupply very fast. This leads to? YES cheaper goods. This means that you, I, Joe down the street can buy cheaper products.

People can talk all they want about closing down borders and such. But the truth is Genie is out of the bottle. Since technology exists to produce more efficiently(cheaper) outside companies will do it. If government gets involved, it will be bribed, corrupted etc until restrictions are meaningless. Ever looked at what is the ACTUAL tax rate as opposed to the one you think government makes corporations pay? Also where many corporations establish their headquarters to pay cheaper rates. As Friedman said, if companies in US actually payed the taxes they are supposed to, economy would grind to a halt and die.


Question that should be asked is America or Canada a useless country that cant produce goods more efficiently then India or China? No. If someone answers yes, well I hope nobody here does.

Why do people in US or Canada think that they entitled to some amount being payed for certain labor? None of us are, if some Indian in his shack can do the work I do for 1/10th wage + the expenses of communication. Then he deserves the job and I don't. If we want to maintain the salaries that we are payed then we need come up with more efficient way of production. People need to DEAL with it. Creating trade barriers is like hiding our head in the sand trying to avoid looking at fact of economic reality(they will still catch up with us make no mistake).

Already price for qualified outsourced labor is going up. In the industry I work for(product-data management systems) Indians are now losing contracts to east Europeans. Funny thing? North American contractors still getting payed $130 usd+ and hour, project managers way more. In fact I didn't notice any drop in rates at any time during the recession. Qualified smart people have project lined up for 2 years ahead.

In your England vs Portugal example. England needs to look at what is that makes it a poor place for producing anything and how can that be remedied.

here is my program :)
1. Flat revenue neutral tax 15% maybe 20%. NO exemptions of ANY kind. This by itself puts couple million of useless tax lawyers on the street and ready to contribute something usefull. Number of government leaches fired probably even more
2. ZERO minimum wage.
3. Remove all special treatment on unions from the law. Let the companies kill them at will.(only reason why Britain is still alive is that Iron Lady did what had to be done, broke union's back)
4.Privatize education completely.
5.Legalize drugs and tax their sale. Stop wasting government money on it.
5.National parks, state financed projects which are irrelevant to the core government responsibilities privatise.
6. Stop ALL international aid.

Just Flat tax and union laws removal would boost economy into incredible growth. There was an actual republican who had the balls to propose it during his bid for presidential nomination Forbes. In Canada we are stuck with the damn liberals for now.

/flamesuit ON :)

[XBob]

17 - some good ideas, and I particularly like:

"Actually there are a hundred way to approach this, I would like to just see something done, some kind of action."

[Havoc]

Right. I'm sure I made your point for you by disavowing the crap you shoveled. You don't feel any responsibility to this country or it's people. That's the standard. Most of you free traitors see your wealth as something you got. You were allowed to pursue it by the protections and opportunities availed you in this country if you're a Us company. And American workers got you there most likely. Amazing how faint the memory gets when one has money in their pockets and greed is the master.

This is a soveriegn nation. And the people in it will fight to the death to defend it. It's the best system on the face of the planet. If you can't appreciate that, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. Go to india and send us back an indian citizen with a dreem to pursue and the sense to thank God for the opportunity to live here and enjoy the rights we have under this form of Government. If you can't respect or appreciate what this country provides, your a disgrace to your forefathers who bled the ground red across the thirteen original colonies to provide you the opportunity to get where you are.

[Havoc]

Simple - we return to the policies, provisions and laws that were on the books before the madness of free trade struck. This isn't trig. Anti dumping laws and tarrifs were in place to put a stop to unfair trade before it could subvert our economy and put businesses out of business. Absent those protections, what has happened but a proliferation of unfair trade that is subverting our economy. Simple in terms of the necessary steps. Huge task when considering what it takes to get a congress critter off his laurels to do something other than a photo op in some cases.

[XBob]

26 - "Why waive them? China steals them anyways."

they didn't even need to steal them under xlinton. He took our whole patent library, put it on CD and sent it to china, so they could save time doing their patent 'research'.

[Torie]

Actually, almost all my "customers" are Americans, and what I "sell" is totally made in America, mostly by my own hand and mouth. I am a true patriot.

[Havoc]

I know I am and am quite confident - enough that I've accepted offer of my first interview after posting that open letter to Bush ;)

[neutrino]

Why is buying goods from the one willing to sell them at the lowest price a "welfare scheme" for the seller?

When one transfers jobs from one area to another, one decreases the average income of the former, and increase that of the latter. Thus the relative level of incomes between the two is changed.

And that, my good Torie, is the welfare scheme in a nasty little nutshell.

[Torie]

Glad you mentioned India btw, which has a functioning and robust democracy, amazing in many ways, given that for so long, its economy was so dysfunctional, a rather honest judiciary, and is now copying American economic models, and is now rapidly achieving a much more functional economic system. Isn't it grand? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[underbyte]

"""they didn't even need to steal them under xlinton. He took our whole patent library, put it on CD and sent it to china, so they could save time doing their patent 'research'. """"

No Lie, the commerce dept called me when WJC was in office and asked me if it was OK to give a couple of my patents to a Chinese delegation they had coming to town.

Pigs, I always wonder actually how much and what, they gave our enemies

[null and void]

Or we could just eliminate the competition...< /kidding?>

[schu]

That is fine, you are therefore willing to accept higher, in some cases much higher, prices for what you buy. The bottom line is your standard of living will decline and so will mine.

Please make sure you get everyone to agree to this before we start enacting any laws.

The answer is not protection, the answer is to compete.

[Havoc]

I never met a true patriot, sir, who couldn't respect the sovereignty of this country. Nor one who thought the best way to secure this land was to subvert it and make it easier for an enemy to march on. I could say more; but, that's damaging enough. The last guy that claimed he was something after twisting my words, misquoting me and building decietful strawmen claimed to be Catholic.. I'm sure to the astonishment of good Catholics. I don't agree a whit with their religion; but, they're largely decent people just the same who I'm sure would largely disagree with the notion of lying openly and blatently about someone with the quote of what I'd actually said sitting right there for all to see. Unethical people pick the most interesting times to claim religion - usually when their position is so bad they have to hide behind something else for pretense and to save face. I rather care not a whit which it is for you. But I've no use for subversive theories that destroy american lives in the name of higher profit. Everyday market forces, people understand. But when you're acting to disenfranchise someone because they're American and you don't want to pay US wages but want to make US profits - that isn't patriotism.. that's unethical treasonous opportunism. Tough words, perhaps; but what you guys are pushing is far more insipid than harsh words can do justice to.