Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade

Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

[XBob]

318 - "It's the grand total of all labor costs from the very beginning of product to the very end (when it's on the shelf.)
We ARE talking manufactured goods, not IP.
Services, obviously, have little "cascade," but interestingly the approx. 70% labor component is the same."

All these free-traitor experts don't seem to understand that there are at least 5 stages in the creation and sale of a product. So, at 15% to a stage for labor costs, that works out to about 75%, or very close to the 70% figure. And Walmart's genius is to cut the costs and labor of the various individual stages in their business, using several different methods, including reduction of labor at numbers of the stages, and reduction of aquisition costs.

[Torie]

In your dreams pal. Even in a scenario where Howlin and Miss Marple and Jwalsh07 have all abandoned Bush, Torie will still be in his corner. Torie well be there even if the room is otherwise near empty. I hope that helps.

By the way, the "again" bit about voting Libertarian is near false. I have only voted libertarian once (oh gosh, it must be about 20 years ago now), and that was for governor, when the Libertarian was a bright and sensible antitrust lawyer, and the Pubbie nominee was a walking brain dead zombie. The Libertarian got about 7% of the vote by the way, which is about the high water mark for the party anywhere, except maybe in Alaska. I hope that helps too.

[jwalsh07]

Battling the pro-insourcers and anti-outsourcers?:-}

[Torie]

Noisome little facts about the in and out sourcing trade surplus, would be wasted pearls before swine. :)

[XBob]

300 - "Stop right there. "Regulations, too?" Yes, regulations! If you put the noose of regulations around your neck that artificially raise the cost of doing business, don't be surprised when the trapdoor opens when you can compete without that noose."

So, with that argument, as a thief (a good capitalist profssion) I should be able to come and steal all your goods without any 'regulations' to prevent that, because that raises the costs of me doing my business.

Horray for the super capitalist. What's your address by the way?

[XBob]

302 "There are such things as 'right' and 'wrong.'"

Not for the super capitalist. In his mind, The only right is his right to make money. There is no wrong, except to protect your right to live.

[XBob]

327 - LOL - must be toddsNoPatriot there at step 4, counting on selling a $100 item for $1000, then counting it as $15.

LOL "I'm just a math stickler. :^)"

"4th step $100, $15.00 labor. "
"5th step $1000, $150.00 labor."

[XBob]

333 - "Well. Your math is compelling. "

Not really - look again. at my last post

[XBob]

354 - greasing palms overseas is common practice. It is the normal way of doing business. Even though it is illegal for US companies to do it. In the mid-east the common term is 'back-sheesh'. I worked for one company on a project there, and knew one of the guys, who carried around $500,000 in cash in a suitcase, just for that purpose. He generally kept it under his bed.

This is one of the major reasons the free-traitors are so against regulation and moving offshore. But they are greasing plenty of politicians palms right here and now.

However, this is a bit different - they are arming terrorists, bribing their ways out of jail and escaping them.

Our free-traitors have no conscience when it comes to anything other than money.

[XBob]

357 - "You're missing my overall point. Your cost of living argument's solution leads right back to the government, which is my overall point. And I'm talking federal, state, and local levels of government. The taxes, regulations, fees, et al. are the real problem. If they aren't addressed, what's the point?"

So, you don't think other countries have governments to support? Governments which take a similar share of their GNP to ours? How do you think they keep a society going? Taxes, in one way or another, are universal. It may be the protection money you pay to the bandit down the street so he won't shoot you (in some other countries), but they are costs of doing business. Backsheesh please, at the point of a gun !!

Sorry, but you are wrong. The major problem is not the government, it is the cost of living variations. The government regulations are just icing on the cake.

Now, how do you propose to reduce the costs of the workers here, so they can compete. Reducing their costs by 25 or 50% by eliminating regulations does not do nearly enough. How do we get the cost of that apartment from $500 per month here to the $10 per month overseas?

Workers have a cost of doing business too, in providing that labor - that is their business.

I spent many years living and working in 3rd world countries. You don't know what you are talking about.

My argumnent does not lead back to government regulation, it leads back to you, super capitalist, because you will have no customers for your products, and no country to sell them in, if we do it your way, and you will bankrupt all of us.

Reduce the costs to the workers here to the level of the chinese, then make your profits on that.

So how do you reduce the cost of that apartment you are renting to your worker, so he can compete? You should, no make that NEED, to compete too in this drive to the bottom, just like the US worker.

How are you going to do it, so you can stay in business?

[cyborg]

I think after government regs have been slashed as much as possible it will be still be different. I'm not sure if USA and Chind and India can even compare. Forgive the simplistic opinion but I'm sure not much outsourcing goes to Ireland because the cost of labor is a lot like here.

[XBob]

during the 70's and beyond until the last few years Ireland was a very poor country and particularly because they are hard working and spoke english, so it became a prime spot for industrial develpment.

Recently wages have caught up a lot in the past few years, and the irish factories are moving to china.

One particular example I know of, Gateway computer just closed their new Irish plant which they opened in Ireland in about 1994, to provide computers for Europe, as they moved it to China.

[cyborg]

I don't get it. China is a communist country that is rumored to use prison labor. BTW, my mom wants to go vacationing to Cuba because her best friend came back praising how clean Cuba is,etc. That just made me think that these communist countries are whitewashed tombs to look for everyone on the outside but inside it's all rot and filth. Oh yeah talking about American business, her friend said Cuba is loaded with American businessmen wining and dining and making money hand over fist. Wonder why Cuba is still commie? They won't be able to get away with that stuff if it wasn't.

[hedgetrimmer]

China is a communist country that is rumored to use prison labor

Its no rumor. Look up laogai in yahoo or some other search engine. The laogai disguise themselves by selling products through export companies. This skirts a law passed in the mid-1990s that congress wrote to prohibit Americans doing business with slave labor camps.

[cyborg]

Thanks... I just googled it and came up with a lot of stuff.

[XBob]

As far as I know, it is still illegal for Americans to go to cuba, and they must violate the law by either going from Canada or Mexico or something like that.

cuba is sort of different for a communist country, as it has no resources except sugar cane, and tobacco and good weather - which means tourists.

So, they fix up the tourist areas. I haven't been there in many years, and that was only to Guantanamo. I thought I was going once, though to invade them.

Tell your mother from me to stay there if she goes, and try to earn a living there. And take her friends to stay too. But leave her job here and our money here.

If you look back on some of the old FR threads about Elian Gonzales, it seems to me that his father made $12 per month, and we still have people escaping to Florida. They just pulled some Cubans out of the water last month.

I have been to Moscow and to East Berlin, during the cold war, to see what I was fighting for. And they were very clean (street sweeping is a major occupation - with brooms), so I would assume Cuba would be not much different. They were cold, austere and steril and very repressed. That's what communism does. But in cuba, I would imagine they put a nice calypso beat and a vibrant fresh coat of paint for the tourists. But take a look and try to see what the people get.

Sorry - people who think cuba, communism and no freedom is great, make me really mad.

What does she think this country is all about?

[XBob]

373 - "Cuba is loaded with American businessmen wining and dining and making money hand over fist."

Free-Traitors are bound by no rules and scruples or honor and no patriotism. That's why I call them traitors.

[cyborg]

That's what I told my mom. I told her don't believe anything her idiot friend says because if life was so good no one would be coming over here in rafts. BTW, no one poor says things like that about Cuba. Her friend is a doctor's wife who is also a nurse that makes big time money. Oh yeah she probably got into Cuba because she's not a citizen, she's Jamaican.

[cyborg]

I think that my mother is very discouraged about paying taxes and she hates politics to boot. She says thing like America isn't the same,etc. (I think she just misses my dad personally). My mom NEVER used to say stuff like that.

[Toddsterpatriot]

327 - LOL - must be toddsNoPatriot there at step 4, counting on selling a $100 item for $1000, then counting it as $15.

Just trying to use simple math to make a simple point.

The idea was value added at each stage. Use whatever random numbers you want.

15% of every stage adds up to 15% of the total.

Your post #318:All these free-traitor experts don't seem to understand that there are at least 5 stages in the creation and sale of a product. So, at 15% to a stage for labor costs, that works out to about 75%, or very close to the 70% figure.

You're really showing your ignorance here.

Look at the non-labor 85% at each stage. Do 5 stages add up to 425%? Multiplying by 5 stages is wrong. Add up the labor number at each stage and divide by total of all stages.

At least this free-trader understands math.