Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade

Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

[XBob]

250 - "The free traitors haven't refuted anything yet...They can't...All they do is deny, deny, deny...And then call you a bunch of names..."

well put.

[XBob]

257 - We here in the US and Canada are in a unique position. We have the largest single market in the world, by far. And we have the resources and talent and did have the factories to support that market, without trade with anyone. We also have enough oil to be self sufficient (locked in our coal and shale deposits).

Just about the only products we don't have are a few strategic minerals, like chromium.

I'm about ready to say, lock the doors, and go on our merry way.

As an example, We are the only country left not on the metric system, and we do pretty well without it.

I have lived and worked in many countries over the years, rich and poor. We are unique here. The others all lack either resources or people or government or culture. We have got it all.

I would miss bananas though.

[Colorado Buckeye]

"Indeed. So, either the American people stage a political revolution or the Chinese peasants start a shooting war. I think I know which will happen first."

Actually neither would happen, the Chinese would demand more democracy. This would occur in the same way that the south koreans and Taiwanese demanded more democracy

Or maybe it would occur in a fashion resembling what happened the last time the Chinese asked for a bit of freedom. Remember that, in a little place called Tienanmen Square?

I expect that we will see an American political revolution, resembling what happened in 1994.

[Colorado Buckeye]

Well, I think, when the time is right, the Chinese will revalue upward, dramatically, and come and take posession of 'their' country here in the US, without firing a shot, as our government hands it over to them.

The Chinese have so far resisted a major revaluation. I expect that there is much technology yet for them to buy, besides, they are desperately trying to create jobs for people being pushed off the farms. We still have working factories for them to acquire.

The American people will have a political revolution first.

[Poohbah]

A bit of work and design, and a 50,000 capacity troop ship could be outfitted in no time.

Sure.

Try unloading those 50,000 troops under fire.

[XBob]

265 - "Try unloading those 50,000 troops under fire."

Well, unloading at their own port (remember xlinton trying very hard to give our Navy Base at Long Beach to the Chinese?) Port Hillary, will give them some military and california police protection (remember the reports of the national guard under xlinton in 1998-99 being tested to see if they would fire on American citizens), and remember the picture of Elian Gonzoles going home to Cuba, courtesy of an M-16?

[Poohbah]

Well, unloading at their own port (remember xlinton trying very hard to give our Navy Base at Long Beach to the Chinese?)

Oh, you mean that the property deed confers magical protection against bombs and artillery?

Hillary, will give them some military and california police protection (remember the reports of the national guard under xlinton in 1998-99 being tested to see if they would fire on American citizens),

It was 1994, it was Marines at 29 Palms, and it was a survey conducted by a student at the Naval Postgraduate School who was evaluating the impact of having the military perform meals-on-wheels and domestic "law enforcement" missions on unit cohesion. The guy's thesis concluded that said impact would be substantial and negative.

Either you're ignorant, or you're altering facts to make your argument. Which is it?

[ninenot]

Look, the Chinese know, as did the Japanese, that there's no way to win a land war in the USA by invading (at least not without extremely significant casualties.) From the West, they have to climb over mountains to do it, and there are a HELL of a lot of citizens of the US with .30-06 talents and ammo to make that very difficult, not to mention we DO have some military left here...

SO the Chinese are doing it by other means. Economic destruction leading to social unrest, leading to governmental instability, etc., etc.

They are NOT stupid.

[Poohbah]

Anyone willing to deliberately foment civil unrest in a country with hundreds of deliverable nuclear warheads fits the definition of "stupid AND crazy."

[XBob]

268 - "SO the Chinese are doing it by other means. Economic destruction leading to social unrest, leading to governmental instability, etc., etc.
They are NOT stupid."

LOL, not like PooPoo, who seems to think the National Guard Units in the mid-west preparing for implementation of xlinton martial law for Y2 are the same as a Marine meals on wheels survey in the deserts of california, set up as an initial attempt to change the mission of the Marines from fighting to waitressing.

Remember when xlintons assistant secretary of defense said the Marines were 'mean' and dangerous? Remember when xlinton put in homosexuals into the military. Remember when xlinton put women on the firing lines and onboard ships to get killed and/or pregnant or both. I wonder how many pregnant xlinton women have been killed in Iraq?

I was waiting for xlinton to dress the marines in pink.

[Iscool]

When US companies trade with India do you really think there is not a SINGLE good that Americans are better/more efficient at producing? Because if we in North America are that sad, we should all commit sepuku and be done with it.

And this is your argument??? We are more proficient and more efficient than any other country in the world...But we can not make a house and car payment while earning less than 2 dollars per day (China)...Can you????

Millions of jobs have left North America and scores of millions more are going to leave...There are only two options to keep millions of us (you included) from losing our jobs...One of those is laws against outsourcing, and tarriffs re-inacted...The other is to get competetive with china...That means we get paid the same or less than the chinese workers get...And I'm not interested in living on stir fried rice, minus the stir fry...

[Poohbah]

LOL, not like PooPoo, who seems to think the National Guard Units in the mid-west preparing for implementation of xlinton martial law for Y2 are the same as a Marine meals on wheels survey in the deserts of california, set up as an initial attempt to change the mission of the Marines from fighting to waitressing.

I'm sure you can provide proof for your claim that any such survey was given to "the National Guard Units in the mid-west preparing for implementation of xlinton martial law for Y2."

Remember when xlinton put in homosexuals into the military.

I thought your recruiter was the first one to do that...

[XBob]

well put points for the greedy, ignorant and the dumb free-traitors.

[Poohbah]

The other is to get competetive with china...That means we get paid the same or less than the chinese workers get...

If you're only capable of doing the inept level of work that Chinese workers perform at, why should you be paid top dollar for it?

If you can't compete on price, compete on value delivered. Or is that too capitalistic for you?

[cyborg]

Government has way too much regulations on so many levels. Also, it's not the wild wooly days of early industry and I think unions do more harm than good. There are so much practical things that can be done first before anyone starts talking about tariffs and passings laws against outsourcing. However, government gets so much revenue from companies paying off fines, paying for this and that that they won't address these basic issues. Another thing about low priced items is related to the illegal immigration issue but that's another thread altogether.

[ninenot]

Just got an email review of a book written by IBM's senior researcher and another associate. Quotation of review follows:

Press Release Source: Alfred P. Sloan Foundation

Beyond Lost Jobs, Offshoring May Hurt Americans' Standard of Living; World-Class Thinkers Call for Comprehensive National Strategy Tuesday April 13, 11:30 am ET

WASHINGTON, April 13 /PRNewswire/ -- Long before "offshoring" became a presidential campaign buzzword, Former IBM Research Director Ralph E. Gomory and New York University Economist William J. Baumol were foreshadowing the major systemic problem being debated today. "What we are experiencing is a situation where reasonable corporate objectives are potentially clashing with what's good for the country," said Gomory. "There certainly are circumstances under which cheaper goods produced by offshoring do benefit those whose jobs are untouched; there are also situations when offshoring results in a negative impact that can reduce the nation's overall income."

In their book, "Global Trade and Conflicting National Interests" (Lionel Robbins Lectures, 2000), Ralph E. Gomory, Ph.D. and William J. Baumol, Ph.D. show that new and significant conflicts resulting from international trade are inherent in today's modern economy. "Some of the things that many believe about international trade need much closer examination," said Baumol. "For example, it's wrong to assume that productivity increases abroad are always good for our country, just as it's wrong to assume that they are always bad."

Gomory and Baumol were invited to discuss their analysis at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. today. They argue that an improvement in one country's productivity is often attainable only at the expense of another country's general welfare. "A trade relationship can prove to be simultaneously good or bad on three different levels. In other words, it can be good or bad for workers, good or bad for the country and good or bad for the world, all at the same time," said Gomory. "In a modern free-trade environment a country has a vital stake in the competitive strength of its industries. Trade is a complex interaction; we need a comprehensive national effort."

A noted mathematician, Ralph E. Gomory is President of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Gomory joined IBM in the early days of computers and went on to become Research Director and Senior Vice President, Science and Technology. He was awarded the National Medal of Science in 1988. William Baumol is a world-renowned economist. He is Professor of Economics at New York University, and Senior Research Economist and Professor Emeritus at Princeton University. He is former president of the American Economic Association.
_____

Source: Alfred P. Sloan Foundation

Seems as though there's a bit of conscience-tugging going on here....

[Poohbah]

Press Release Source: Alfred P. Sloan Foundation

Says it all right there.

The Sloan Foundation is just about the only major "philanthropic organization" that actually takes positions that are to the left of the Ford Foundation.

[XBob]

275 - "Government has way too much regulations on so many levels. Also, it's not the wild wooly days of early industry"

Ah, you are correct. However, thats what our free-traitors are arguing for.

And doing away with government regulations won't change the fact that I can get an adequate 2 bedroom apartment in Bejing or Delhi or Cairo for $10 per month. No amount of regulation reduction will compensate for that. Their cost of living must be compensated for. I could live very comfortably for $100 per month in many 3rd world countries I have lived and worked, once I learned the 'local' 'market' prices. They don't have 'fixed' pricing. Especially for foreigners/tourists, which is the only thing most Americans ever find out. And you have to learn the local language to understand what they are doing.

Even taking all the regulations and taxes off everything can't reduce the cost of living/production that much, anywhere in the US, though when I first came to Texas from New York, (at the same salary) I figured I got a $3,000 salary increase, just from Tax relief, and for the same rent for a tiny 1 bedroom garageless apartment in New York (garage was $185/month more), I got a 4 bedroom house, with 2 car garage. So it cost me nearly 20 times as much to just park my car, in NYC, as it cost to house me and my family in a 3rd world country.

There is no way we can compete with this.

[XBob]

276 - "Seems as though there's a bit of conscience-tugging going on here...."

Perhaps he figured out we can outsource economists, and are starting to do so. The Indians are figuring this out, even as IBM is building and investing in India.

[cyborg]

You're right.