Clarifications on the Case for Free Trade

Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | 4/12/04 | Paul Craig Roberts

[XBob]

bttt 55 - "Bottom line - David Ricardo's free trade postion (as of 1823) has been invalidated because the advance in technology has invalidated the underlying assumptions!

Free trade - outdated thinking, and obsolete policy."

[hedgetrimmer]

It is very possible that our economy is being subverted, and there are many, many examples. Starting with the shutting down of nearly all of our industries that use natural resources in the name of environmentalism, the export of dollars to foreign countries via phony regional goverments for infrastructure improvement to them, the loss of borders and sovereignty through trade treaties.

The Nazis used to talk about the importance of the 3 e's, economics, environment and education. We all know that our education system and environment have been under assault by leftists and communists for some time, the third e, economics is the final leg to support global socialism. That is why the free traders are so vociferous, because to them, victory is in sight.

[underbyte]

"""The proof is in the pudding. Just why is the most free tread nation on Earth, also the richest, and on a per capita income basis""""

Of course you left out the 400 billion dollar deficit, 500 billion dollar trade deficit, Unfunded social security and other gov liabilities, I pay slightly over 50% in state and federal taxes. So to make ends meet they raise my taxes to what? 60%? 70%?

This abstract miracle economy is running on vapors from artificially low interest rates, dilution & duct tape.

It's a house of cards

And why is it so expensive for americans to travel to europe? Oh yeah it is those diluted cheap miracle american dollars
The miracle is about to end.

[dimk]

Most likely people on welfare who did not think they could get a job now are actually looking for one. Alot changed in winter, many people got job so perhaps their friends and such are now looking for job too?

In general this development(300,000+ new jobs) and stable unemployment rate is very good. Tons of new jobs and many of the disilusioned people are looking for work once again.

I am not sure how much of it is due to the fiscal stimulus from the administration. But if there is a huge victory that President can celebrate is that country is out of the recession for good(been out of it for a LONG time now) and the US economy is just gathering speed. In fact by the middle of summer I am sure Fed will start trying to slow things down to avoid overheating. Interest rates will go up and soon. From economic point of view if re-elected the best thing for administration would be to axe spending on social programs, "war on drugs" etc keep the tax cut but minimize the deficit. Press the breaks on the spending side, but keep military financing at the level needed to win the war.

[XBob]

bttt - "Ahh, yes - free trade, the U.N. backed global welfare scheme funded by American taxpayers"

[FITZ]

The welfare rolls are way down

State and federal spending on government handout programs is really way down? Are you sure? I don't mean just TANF -- one cash handout program but all the welfare programs combined -- food stamps, WIC, government housing, Medicaid, CHIP, NAFTA-TAA, free college, SSDI and the rest? All the combined state and local "poverty" programs? I doubt social program spending is below what it was in 1960 and earlier and still accounts for over half of government spending --- which is very high currently.

[Torie]

Other than workers comp fraud, you really can't live off of all of that stuff alone. The dirty little secret is that the work ethic is alive and well in America, and more alive than ever.

[Torie]

Unfunded future and unrealistic entitlement benefits are a house of cards, and will be cut back. That is an entirely different issue, and mostly driven by future demographics. So I suggest that your comment is off topic, and irrelevant to the topic.

[dimk]

>>Of course you left out the 400 billion dollar deficit,

As long as interest is being paid it not really a problem.

>>500 billion dollar trade deficit,

Trade deficit is not really a problem unless it is created by other countries protectionism. Governemt should fight those. Start with China, Japan, Europe. Put the heat on them to open markets.

>>Unfunded social security and other gov liabilities,

agreed this is a BIG problem. Privatize social security, education etc Government has no business managing them, if insurance companies ran their business like social security runs they wouyld all be bankrupt 50 years ago.

>>I pay slightly over 50% in state and federal taxes. So to >>make ends meet they raise my taxes to what? 60%? 70%?

Agreed. Solution is reduction in government spending on the useless programs like social security. Flat tax. Do you know how many ways are there to LEGALLY evade taxes? And how many people are paid 6 digit salaries to come up with more? 30% flat tax would probably generate more income then the mess US has now.

[XBob]

are you a property owner - reduce my apartment rent to $10 per month, like the chinese and indians, and my needed income goes down dramatically.

are you a resturanteer - reduce my lunch cost to the price in india and china - 25cents, and my food costs go down.

Then, I can compete with china and india.

[XBob]

Pow - right between the eyes - but you got him in a non-vital spot, and it won't even slow him down:

70 - "This is a soveriegn nation. And the people in it will fight to the death to defend it. It's the best system on the face of the planet. If you can't appreciate that, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. Go to india and send us back an indian citizen with a dreem to pursue and the sense to thank God for the opportunity to live here and enjoy the rights we have under this form of Government. If you can't respect or appreciate what this country provides, your a disgrace to your forefathers who bled the ground red across the thirteen original colonies to provide you the opportunity to get where you are."

[Torie]

I pay slightly over 50% in state and federal taxes

No you don't actually, even including FICA payments, which to some extent you get back, unless you pay very high property taxes on an expensive house. If you earn a very high income, and live in a high income tax state, it is probably as an average rate, about 40 to 45 percent max. Myself, with careful planning, about a 38% of what I earn and make from investments, goes to the public weal.

[djreece]

marking

[Torie]

Actually, on checking my tax returns, and estimating gas and sales taxes, it is closer to 35%. Such a deal.

[XBob]

75 - bang, another shot to a non vital area, right between the eyes.

"When one transfers jobs from one area to another, one decreases the average income of the former, and increase that of the latter. Thus the relative level of incomes between the two is changed.
And that, my good Torie, is the welfare scheme in a nasty little nutshell."

[Torie]

Ya, that shot simply blew me away. It was devastating.

[XBob]

77 - "No Lie, the commerce dept called me when WJC was in office and asked me if it was OK to give a couple of my patents to a Chinese delegation they had coming to town."

Amazing.

Not amazing that they gave your patents to the chinese, but amazing that they asked your permission.

I hope you said no.

[XBob]

79 - "The bottom line is your standard of living will decline and so will mine."

That's already happening, and has been happening for a number of years now, as wages have remained steady while prices have risen (unless you happen to be a rich CEO SOB).

[Torie]

Another phony stat, posted this time from you. For the record.

[going hot]

I have read this entire thread with interest. Your posts have a certain forcefullness to them. It appears you have nothing but distain for those who differ with you regards "free trade".You talk a good talk. You are fast and witty. However, I could not disagree with you more. In fact, if my blood pressure were as high as yours, I would probably blow a gasket. Your attempts to paint those who disagree with you as treasonous traitors to this country does not win converts. It simply alienates a good many people from your philosophy, people who have, in their own ways, placed their all on the line for this country.

The damage done to government credibility and faith is pretty much at an all time low with all those watching everyone around them being sold out for slave labor.
Let me get this straight: There are people, a great many of them, who are watching everyone around them lose their jobs to foreign replacements (slave labor) , who have also lost all faith in the US govt, and think the US govt credibility is at an all time low?

If that is indeed the translation of the above quote, you have no basis or foundation for making such a statement.
We have been losing 8-10 % of our existing jobs every year since 1950. However, there is a net gain overall since then. Certainly, there are pockets of ebb and flow, but the total number of jobs has increased. The current unemployment rate says that roughly 95% of the work force are in fact employed. They vote as well as the 5% that are not.

There are of course pockets of joblessness, in some places an unbearable amount. In other places, the local economy is in danger of overheating, with very low unemployment.

Blanket statements about the dismal and sad state of affairs regards employment, or the lack thereof due to outsouceing probably goes over well in that union hall described above, especially if the workers are liberals, and are looking for yet another dart to throw at the "selected" president their union leader warns them about. In many other places, people would simply smile, and turn away from your eloquent reasoning.