An Open letter to President Bush (End run vs. Outsourcing)

Me | Me

[Toddsterpatriot]

ENRON is one of your heros stealing billions and billions of dollars from people, with lies, theft, and swindling.

I thought corporations were legal fictions. You're giving corporations human chacteristics now?

[Toddsterpatriot]

I want my money back which supported/s your corporations here in the US.

Only if you give me back all the taxes the corporations paid.

[Havoc]

I'm at war with ignorance, not the average citizen. I didn't say the citizen must lose, I said the government will lose. Big difference.

Contrare' - you said you're at war with the government and that is we the people - of the people, for the people, by the people. If the government is us, and you say the government will or must lose, then you say we lose by default. You made the statement, wear it.

So, the government is us, the people, but the corporations are not people? Just some evil malevolent force?

Yep, they're people too. And nobody is keeping them from making a living. All we're discussing is what is an ethical living and what isn't. It's obvious from numerous examples that there is such a thing as profiting unethically. And there is a track record of correcting it. You want to obfuscate that fact and beg pitty and understanding all of a sudden when all along, you free traitor types tell us you owe the worker nothing. It isn't our job. We have no right to expect that when you give us a carreer and a retirement plan that if we do our job we'll ever see retirement if you get greedy in the meantime and decide not to pay it. It's pretty much bait and switch. Sucker them in the door at the best price you can get, work them like a dog and cut them loose before you have to pay up on your agreed obligation. It isn't like there's not a trackrecord to point to. Ya'll decide you want a 10mill bonus this year so you put a percentage of your workers out on the street and force the rest to take up the slack at threat of their jobs - productivity suffers along with quality of service. We lose respect for the company, hate the job, and don't care any longer what gets done for you. That's your product. But it's people you are warring against - not the government. And your reputations are of your own making. So let's not play at victimhood and being misunderstood. Enron Higher ups made record earnings for themselves, record bonuses and perks while they shafted the workers and cooked the books. They just got caught. Not all are crooked, they just let their ethical issues take the logical next step. If people don't matter and what you therefore do to them doesn't matter, then embezzlement and cooking the books and all manner of other things don't really matter either - you're only hurting cattle.. right.

[Havoc]

So, I suppose you're in favor of sugar import quotas and steel tariffs? Gotta protect that US industry, right?

I support not subverting our economy in the name of profit.

[XBob]

422-"Only if you give me back all the taxes the corporations paid."

What taxes. Only people can pay taxes. Corporations aren't people, therefore can't pay taxes.

[Havoc]

So, you would restrict the ability of an American company to hire Mexicans?

I would say if you're going to hire Mexicans in Mexico to do the labor, then you have to level the playing field - you have to spend exactly the same you'd pay stateside across the board - taxes, benefits, wages, etc. That is so you can't endrun the system and put others out of business by unfair competition. Competition is fine - it's when it's unfair that it's problematic. As I've said in my letter, if I can't win, it isn't competition. It doesn't mean I have to win. If you bring four guys to a monopoly board, and take one of them aside, blindfold, gag him and defen him with earplugs, then tie his hands and set him in "competition" with the others, it isn't competing - it's cruel and unusual punishment. Which is why it boils up revolution.

Then you would also have to restrict the importation of any product that a foreign company made which used Mexican workers.

You mean like antidumping laws and tarrifs to level the purchase price at a competative norm. Gee, seems we used to have that before all this stuff came about. And we've built ourselves into a superpower under those rules. Hmm.

Is that what you're suggesting? Would that solve your problem?

I don't think you're looking for a solution or capable of granting one; but, what I stated above would end outsourcing and free trade - so I'm for what I proffered above.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Enron Higher ups made record earnings for themselves, record bonuses and perks while they shafted the workers and cooked the books.

Yes. The officers did these things. They did them, not the corporation. They got caught and deserve the punishment they get.

Here was the rest of my post:391

I love that you guys think the government can fix the "fair trade" problem or the outsourcing problem.Government will always lose to the corporations. And if the government ever wins the collateral damage will hurt far more of the little people than will be helped.

Did the government beat Microsoft in the bid anti-trust case from a few years back?

Did that really help the little people?

The government will lose whenever it goes up against the corporations because it is going up against the market.

You know, the market. Millions of people and companies making millions of transactions everyday.

Jimmy Carter restricted oil company profits in the 70's. Did the government win? Did it help the little people?

Yeah, gas lines and fuel shortages. Victory!!!

[Toddsterpatriot]

Corporations aren't people, therefore can't pay taxes.

So you agree corporate tax rates of zero would be good?

[Toddsterpatriot]

So, I suppose you're in favor of sugar import quotas and steel tariffs? Gotta protect that US industry, right?

I support not subverting our economy in the name of profit.

So that's a yes?

[Toddsterpatriot]

I would say if you're going to hire Mexicans in Mexico to do the labor, then you have to level the playing field - you have to spend exactly the same you'd pay stateside across the board - taxes, benefits, wages, etc. That is so you can't endrun the system and put others out of business by unfair competition. Competition is fine - it's when it's unfair that it's problematic.

Does this only apply to cheaper Mexican labor?

What about cheaper American labor? Is it unfair if EDS dumped you for a new college grad? Would that be unfair?

[Havoc]

I love that you guys think the government can fix the "fair trade" problem or the outsourcing problem.Government will always lose to the corporations. And if the government ever wins the collateral damage will hurt far more of the little people than will be helped.

The government caused the outsourcing problem by a treaty and dissolving prior trade laws. All they have to do is reverse that. And, yes, they can do it. You act like it just created itself.

[Havoc]

You have to honestly ask these questions? Tell me, do you know the meaning of the word integrity?

No, it obviously does not apply just to Mexican labor, it would apply to any labor outside the country trying dump their product on the market below the going rate in order to drive others out of business.

And further, I suppose your second question depends on circumstance, is it ethical to replace an employee who's been loyal to the company for 23 years and done everything right? Is it ethical to replace them short of retirement because you don't want to pay their retirement - just so you can screw someone and make a few more dollars for yourself.. I have a coworker that is old enough, nobody is going to hire him and pay him a retirement. He stood a chance of retiring from EDS; but, that's gone. And that's normal in the "new normal" as defined by corporate slavemasters.

Let's reduce it to a basic form. Let's take you're kid who you promised an allowance as long as he does a specific set of chores every week. We'll say you give him 5 bucks friday and an additional 5 per friday in lump sum at summertime - an incentive for him to keep at it and do a good job long term. Come summertime, you tell your kid, oh, I decided I wanted a new fur coat, sorry, you can't have the moeny. What kind of a piece of crap would you be in your kid's eyes. But adults aren't people - just cattle, right....

We all know what's right and wrong. Some just choose to suppress it in favor of what they want. Sometimes it's corporate greed, sometimes it's theivery, sometimes it's murder... But we all know the difference. But we also know what the bible says - the love of money is the root of all evil. People will treat others in any unethical fashion under the sun for their lust for a buck. I'm a human being, I'm just as capable as the next person. Some of us don't repress proper ethics and make the excuses. You wouldn't like it one bit if it happened to you; but, you can sit there and treat us like we're nothing and have no right to any expectation. We have no right to expect so much as for you to hold up your end. None.

Just cattle..

[XBob]

428 -"So you agree corporate tax rates of zero would be good?"

Actually, since they don't pay taxes, let's make it 100% for corportate taxes.

[XBob]

we are just wasting bandwidth with this looney toon, Toddsnopatriot.

Let's just ignore him.

He just a kid who enjoys pulling the wings of insects and putting firecrackers in cat's behinds.

[Texasforever]

Well the founders would disagree with you. Most of the used REAL slave labor.

[Texasforever]

Let's just ignore him.

In other words he kicked your butt.

[Texasforever]

Did you say you were on the help desk?

[XBob]

screw you too.

He did no such thing. He just has proved to be a waste of time, and will not use a logical argument, and has no ethics.

[XBob]

Ignore this one too, unless you wish to waste more time attempting to respond to stupidities.

[meadsjn]

Walter Williams draws a government paycheck from a state college, and that little fact alone is sufficient to invalidate everything he has to say on outsourcing, offshoring, immigration, and international trade.

His income is enhanced through bureacratic voodoo and the leverage of government unions (even though he may not be a member). His position is not threatened by either anti-American globalism or domestic market forces.