The VVAW Assassination Discussion - "A lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it."

March 25, 2004 | Compiled

[Hon]

One of the reasons I thought I should post these excerpts is to counter the notion that the idea was not treated seriously--or that it was laughed off. It was not. It was considered very seriously and there were others who supported it.

[Hon]

"[A] lot of people were convinced that this was the way to do it."

This is not the way the media is now trying to spin it.

BTW, this is from John "Doc" Upton, who was and still is a major player in the VVAW.

[potlatch]

Ping

[GailA]

btt

[prairiebreeze]

What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy. When they got the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their "debugging expert" uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again - to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a "crash pad," on 77th Terrace.

Yes this certainly casts doubt on the "it was just one guys hare-brained idea and immediately hooted down" story the RATS are telling. And Randy Barnes has changed his story rather dramatically........

Reminder Ping!

[Hon]

"Yes this certainly casts doubt on the "it was just one guys hare-brained idea and immediately hooted down" story the RATS are telling. And Randy Barnes has changed his story rather dramatically."

Well, according to Nicosia's (oft-interally contradictory) account, Barnes wasn't even allowed to attend the final discussion and vote.

An instantaneous decision was made to move again - to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a "crash pad," on 77th Terrace. This time a vote was taken to exclude anyone but regional coordinators and members the national office. The rest of the members, even trusted leaders such as Randy Barnes and John Upton (who had earned their credibility in the mud and tears of Dewey Canvon III), were forced to wait outside on the grass, where messeng­ers brought frequent word of what was going on inside. According to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy."

So how would Barnes know what happened during the vote?

[prairiebreeze]

I should clarify that I was talking about statements made then vs. now from Barnes. Barnes has changed his story dramatically from according to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy" to what he was saying on Scarborough a night or two ago where he was touting the "one guy's crazy idea which was immediately hooted down" story.

Prairie

[Mo1]

And Randy Barnes has changed his story rather dramatically."

Is he the guy who was reading from his notes the other night on TV slamming the reporter from NY sun?

[Hon]

Some more from Nicosia:

The Phoenix plan, like the rest of Camil's proposals, was voted down in Kansas City, but its specter had only begun to haunt the organization; and, ironically enough, among those whose imaginations it enflamed were those very agents who had been charged with finding a way to destroy VVAW.

It also immediately made Camil himself a government target, perhaps for the very sort of elimination he had envisioned for some of the diehard supporters of the war. On December 22, 1971, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover sent a classified memo to the director of the Jacksonville office, dealing specifically with Camil. It read in part: "Information developed to date regarding subject [Camil] indicates clearly subject is extremely dangerous and unstable individual whose activities must be neutralized at earliest possible time."

Several other memos that followed used that same word, neutralize, in an even less ambiguous context, such as: "Jacksonville continue to press vigorously to insure that all necessary action taken to completely neutralize subject without delay." As Camil later explained: "When you pin the government down, they'll say, ‘Well, "neutralize" just means to render useless.' But if you talk to guys in the field, they say it means to kill."

When Camil returned to Florida from Kansas City, despite his failure to get any of his programs adopted, he took with him a goodly measure of respect from many coordinators and much of the membership.

In typical Nicosia fashion he quotes from FBI files to try to make Camil look like a target for a hit (preposterously), and yet he ignored the FBI files that placed Kerry at the KC meeting.

Nicosia also got it wrong that none of Camil's proposals were carried out--for Camil had proposed contacted POW families and using them in their agit-prop--which Kerry went on to do for future photo-ops and press conferences, while still calling himself a spokesman for the VVAW.

[Hon]

" Barnes has changed his story dramatically from according to Barnes, everybody knew that the discussion in that hall "was grounds for criminal indictment of conspiracy" to what he was saying on Scarborough a night or two ago where he was touting the "one guy's crazy idea which was immediately hooted down" story."

It was Larry O'Donnell who was carrying the water for the Kerry machine, who claimed on Scarborough that the proposal got hooted down.

Barnes was on The Big Show with John Gibson and tried to backpedal, saying at first that Kerry wasn't there--but then slipping up and blurting out that Kerry had voted against the proposal.

The Kerry folks need to get their stories in order. John Hurley (who is a former VVAW member and now the head of Veterans For Kerry) has been handling the bimbo--I mean--VVAW eruptions for Kerry.

Hurley has even gone so far as to lean on a man with three (truly deserved) Purple Hearts, John Musgrave, to try to get him to change his story like he got Barnes to do. However, Musgrave stood his ground.

[Hon]

"Is he the guy who was reading from his notes the other night on TV slamming the reporter from NY sun?"

Yes, as I just mentioned above. Even on Gibson's show he screwed up and accidentally blurted out the truth--that Kerry was there.

[prairiebreeze]

Ok, I must have got the shows reversed. I really thought I also heard Barnes make the same point about "one guy" though. Maybe it was more of an inference in Barnes case.

I've been watching too much news....

Prairie

[tpaine]

One of the reasons I thought I should post these excerpts is to counter the notion that the idea was not treated seriously--or that it was laughed off. It was not. It was considered very seriously and there were others who supported it.
1 -Hon-

______________________________________


The fact remains, you have failed to make the point that any government agency took this seriously enough to consider it to be a criminal act.

Hotheaded BS? -- , to be sure.. Some of those involved were obviously highly impressed by their own tough guy talk. -- Big Deal. -- Get a grip, 'hon' baby.

Take off your blue shades, and calm yourself.. FR doesn't need your brand of weird contra agit-prop, imo.

[Hon]

"I really thought I also heard Barnes make the same point about "one guy" though. Maybe it was more of an inference in Barnes case."

You're probably right. I didn't mean to say he didn't say it too. I missed most of Barne's appearance on Gibson and only heard about it later.

But L O'D (pronounced "load") said it as well. Maybe that was one of the talking points that John Hurley gave them.

[Monti Cello]

The fact that the meeting location was moved twice on short notice amid extreme security concerns makes Kerry's claims of forgetfulness even more incredible.

[Ann Archy]

BTTT....VERY Interestin info for Supporters of Kerry to read.

[Hon]

"The fact remains,"

This usually precedes a fact-free assertion when a troll intones it.

"you have failed to make the point that any government agency took this seriously enough to consider it to be a criminal act."

I never sought to make any points. I'm trying to relate information to the forum.

But as a matter of fact, your own assertion might be open to question since Nicosia quoted the following from the FBI (which I believe is a government agency):

On December 22, 1971, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover sent a classified memo to the director of the Jacksonville office, dealing specifically with Camil. It read in part: "Information developed to date regarding subject [Camil] indicates clearly subject is extremely dangerous and unstable individual whose activities must be neutralized at earliest possible time."

Given that there was very little time for Camil do have done anything in the short time following the KC meeting, this FBI memo almost certainly indicates that they had gotten wind of this plot. "Hotheaded BS?" You're soaking in it! "FR doesn't need your brand of weird contra agit-prop, imo."

Folks, TPaine is another one of the trolls who have joined a campaign to try to drive me from Free Republic. I didn't know he was an owner or even a moderator. All I can say is that it is tiresome and not conducive to my efforts here, which many say they appreciate.

I know that FR has a history of driving away good posters who present valuable information. Tpaine and the trolls are the people who do that. Why not put an end to all of that?

[rwfromkansas]

bump

[Hon]

Sorry, my formatting got a little botched, and I wouldn't want you to be confused:

"Hotheaded BS?"

You're soaking in it!

"FR doesn't need your brand of weird contra agit-prop, imo."

Forum cop!

[Hon]

"FR doesn't need your brand of weird contra agit-prop, imo."

Just for the record, here is the weird contra agit-prop I've posted on this subject:

Was Kerry Involved In Plans To Murder 7 US Senators In 1971?
Posted on 03/10/2004 10:29:58 PM EST by Hon
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1080806/posts

Kerry's Group The VVAW Discussed Assassinating Seven Pro-War Senators In December 1971
Posted on 02/18/2004 6:54:31 PM EST by Hon
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1080806/posts

Crazy stuff, no?