Mother is charged in stillborn son's death

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 3/12/04 | Pamela Manson

[GeronL]

I wouldn't say it's bad reporting. If you have ever had any experience with the severly mentally ill, which from the sounds of things this woman is and is probably mildly mentally retarded, when they don't get their way they will say and do anything. You can not reason with them because they don't have the ability. They are concrete thinkers

Your describing liberals.

[Cboldt]

It kinda opens the door to many stillborns, where mom didn't follow doctors orders, can be colored as murder.

The human condition is far from perfect, and IMO, it is arrogant on the part of the law, to think it can remedy the human condition. Murder? In Jail? Behold the infallible power of the state. Bah.

[CajunConservative]

Yes liberals are like that too. That's why they are so dangerous.

[GeronL]

Since when did a Doctor's diagnosis have the power of law? I thought we all should seek a second, third, or fifteenth opinion? Alternative medicine is still legal for goodness sakes, did someone forget that?

Doctor Shopping needs to be Legalized now!! LOL

[CindyDawg]

The doctors could not have forced her. They could have requested to have her sectioned for 72 hrs and tested for competency and then a judge could have made her a ward of the state and appointed a guardian to make these decisions though.

[CajunConservative]

This woman was receiving SSI disability, in other words we were paying for her "medical" care. If she was too mentally ill/retarded to function at a regular job do you think she was capable of making a life saving decision for her baby? I have worked with people like her and they are basically 3-5 year olds in big bodies. They can throw huge temper tantrums and you can't reason with them. She could only put herself first because that is the limit of her thinking.

It is a sad case all around and there should have been some protocol in place for cases like this. Since CPS was called in they should have known the procedure to get a guardian but instead of being useful they passed the buck and said they could do nothing. The hospital social workers should have had the protocol in place but somehow this fell through the cracks.

[My Favorite Headache]

LMAO..I was thinking the same thing

[CindyDawg]

Yeah. A very sad case. Too many people dropped the ball and a baby died and his mentally ill mother now blamed.

[CindyDawg]

see #12

[CajunConservative]

Not to mention the possible brain damage done to the other twin. If she could have been committed for the 72 hours they could have induced labor and gone that route. Also something to keep in mind is that she came to Utah to give up the babies for adoption so there was probably no attatchment to them in that respect.

[Cboldt]

Since when did a Doctor's diagnosis have the power of law? I thought we all should seek a second, third, or fifteenth opinion?

Bad judgement on several counts, and bad judgement leading to death is not unusual. Unfortunate? Sure. But bad judgement is not always bad intention, which is what characterizes murder.

What lesson is the state trying to send? I think the prosecutor is also making a bad judgement, and ought to be held to figure a way to nip this sort of legal arrogance in the bud. The patient/doctor issue is one thing, the social welfare thing is another, but the state ought to be circumspect about bringing murder charges in a case like this.

[Cboldt]

It is a sad case all around and there should have been some protocol in place for cases like this. Since CPS was called in they should have known the procedure to get a guardian but instead of being useful they passed the buck and said they could do nothing.

I know you are well intentioned. Sometimes things just work out badly. For the state to assume it can "fix everything bad" sets the state up for a fall. Some people will fall on their own, and ought to. Sometimes mother nature dishes out a stinker. This mom delivered one live twin, and lost the other. Is this the only time that has happened? Nope. Did she make a bad judgement call? Yep.

I get a bit wiggy as the state makes more and more of the judgement calls. The more state, the less freedom. It's a tough line to draw, the state can do some powerful good -- and some powerful bad.

[TheDon]

Of course the doctors could force her. They give her a shot of something to sedate her, then onto surgery. I'm not saying those involved wouldn't lose their jobs, reputations, and likely serve some jail time, but it would be for a good cause, imho.

[Marie]

If a doctor says this will be a very difficult pregnancy and you should get complete bed rest for the last three months and the mother doesn't and the baby is stillborn, is she guilty of murder? If she smokes, is it murder? If she doesn't eat right, is it murder?"

If she get's an abortion, is it murder??

What I find frightening is that I've gone against doctor's orders when I KNEW something didn't smell right and it was always for the better. Sheesh, I've got some horror stories! I understand that this situation is unique, but I'm concerned that a win for the state will really set us up for some very bad thinking down the road.

[Marie]

...when they don't get their way they will say and do anything. You can not reason with them because they don't have the ability.

Sounds like PMS! ;-)

[CindyDawg]

Yeah. I hope they drop the charges. A system is already in place for a circumstance like this. It just wasn't used.

[Xenalyte]

The woman says she never said it, this reporter should be taken out and flogged. The woman said she had already had 2 c-sections and another wasn't going to add scars. She totally disputes the assertions.

The allegations of the surviving baby having booze and coke in her bloodstream makes me think perhaps Mama ain't as responsible as she could be.

[GeronL]

That would tend to dent her credibility

[ZGuy]

Utah Mom Gets Probation in Stillborn Twin Case