"The Passion" too violent? The "Shroud of Turin" shows it happened!

The Diocese of Charleston ^ | March 21, 2002 | Dr. William E. Rabil

[anonymous_user]

It never fails to amaze me that so many of those who consider themselves "faithful" will cling to shoddy hoaxes or Jesus shaped rust stains on a grain silo to bolster their faith.

That's exactly what I meant to say, but as usual, someone else said it better.

[null and void]

Carbon date is known to be skewed by the bacterial "biofilm" being continually deposited on the fibers since their weaving.

Cleaned fibers date first century, IIRC.

[Ann Archy]

Thanks for your post.

[Ann Archy]

How do you know it's fake?

[Buggman]

How does the existence of a historical artifact (if true, and I believe it probably is, though I wouldn't base my apologetic on it), "muddy up the waters" about the crucifixion? I'm sorry, but I'm just not following your logic here.

The Bible is very clear that after the Resurrection, Jesus' burial cloth was left behind. It makes a certain historical sense that the apostles would have held onto it, and the Bible simply doesn't say either way.

The fact that I intellectually believe that the Shroud is probably genuine does not mean that I need to in order to believe in Jesus or put my faith in His redemptive act--indeed, I believed for over a decade before I ever heard of the Shroud. If the Shroud is later proven false by competent science (which it has not), then my faith in Jesus will not be so much as bruised, let alone be destroyed. If it's proven 100% true, then it becomes yet another reason that I can toss on the already hefty pile of personal, historical, philisophical, prophetic, and miraculous reasons why I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that He died to make an atonement for my sins, and that He rose again.

I understand and applaud a healthy skepticism, but your statements that "The Shroud of Turin is real ONLY if Jesus is NOT the Christ" and that God would have to be incompetant to allow such an artifact to exist make no sense, theological or otherwise.

[Ann Archy]

The carbon dating was done on a piece of repaired fabric.

If you think it's a fake, how did they do it? All te smartest scentist have tested it and most say it's for real!

[Ann Archy]

The Crown of Thorns is exposed once a year on Good Friday at Notre Dame....I've seen it....it's glass enclosed wrapped in silk and an order of priests and nuns oversee it....it's breathtaking!!

[Aquinasfan]

I've looked at the Shroud almost a hundred times, but never saw the scourge marks (!). It might be because I wasn't expecting to see them on the FRONT of His body. But there they are. After seeing the movie, I went to look at The Shroud of Turin and my jaw dropped. It's all right there.

[Ann Archy]

I take it that you aren't Christian...is that right?

[Ann Archy]

It's the SHROUD of Trin...Turin is the city where it is...Torino, Italy.

[Aquinasfan]

By the way: Has anyone ever taken a DNA sample from the Shroud? DNA does give a lot of info about the person's heritage, true?

No, but the blood type is AB, which occurs in 1 in 50 people, but is more common in Jewish people. The blood type matches the blood type in the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano.

[Ann Archy]

Jesus would never allow himself to be cloned....IMHO.

[Aquinasfan]

Its just a cloth real or not. Try not to focus on the object so much and focus on Christ and his Message.

Of course. When the Pope visited the church holding the Shroud, he first went to adore the Eucharist.

However, the Shroud can lead people to God. Many atheist/agnostic scientists who were on the team that studied the Shroud a decade or two ago converted to Catholicism.

[anonymous_user]

Bump to #52 for my "last word" on the subject.

Interesting you think I'm not a Christian. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

[tvn]

There is an independent proof to authenticate the Shroud of Turin. The Sudarium of Oviedo, a smaller cloth napkin, was placed over the face and about the head of the same man whose blood stains are on the Shroud.

In the 1st Century, it was customary among Jews to cover the head or face of the dead out of respect while burial preparations were underway, particularly if there was damage or injury. In 1955, the Most Reverend Monsignor Guilio Ricci discovered similarities in the blood stain patterns on the Sudarium and the blood stains on the Shroud. This suggested that both cloths had been used at some time to cover the same injured head at closely the same times. Recent forensic pathology, blood chemistry analysis, and additional studies of congruent patterns in the stains support this supposition.

The Sudarium has a very different history than the Shroud. The Sudarium has been kept in the Cathedral at Oviedo, Spain since the middle of the eighth century. Historical documents in the late Roman period and the early middle ages are often sketchy and prone to chronological mistakes and those pertaining to the Sudarium are no exception. But from a multiplicity of sources we can extract core elements of historical certainty. We are reasonably sure that the Sudarium came to Oviedo from Jerusalem and that the Sudarium probably dates to the first century. Its journey to its present location began in 644 AD when Persians, under Chosroes II, invaded Jerusalem and the Sudarium was moved out of the city to safety.

We are uncertain of its route to Spain. It may have first been taken to Alexandria along with numerous other relics (real or otherwise) and from there, in succeeding years, along the coast of North Africa ahead of advancing armies. Or it may have been taken by a more direct sea route to Spain. We know that for about 75 years after it arrived in Spain it was kept in Toledo. Then in 718, to protect it from Moslem Arab armies, which had invaded Spain only seven years earlier, it was moved northward with fleeing Christians. Oviedo became the capital of a northern enclave of the Spanish peninsula -- what remained of Christian Spain -- in about 761 AD. It was in Oviedo, that the Sudarium was stored for safe keeping. It has been there since.

A 1999 report, "Recent Historical Investigations on the Sudarium of Oveido," published by Mark Guscin, a member of the multi-disciplined Investigation Team of the Centro Español de Sindonología and the British Society for the Turin Shroud, summarized the forensic findings to date. Here are some highlights of that report:

*"It seems to be a funeral cloth that was probably placed over the head of the corpse of an adult male of normal constitution. The man whose face the Sudarium covered had a beard, moustache and long hair, tied up at the nape of his neck into a ponytail."

*"The man was dead. The mechanism that formed the stains is incompatible with any kind of breathing movement."

*"the man was wounded before death with something that made his scalp bleed and produced wounds on his neck, shoulders and upper part of the back."

*"The man suffered a pulmonary oedema as a consequence of the terminal process. The main stains are one part blood and six parts fluid from the pulmonary oedema."

*"the only position compatible with the formation of the stains on the Oviedo cloth is both arms outstretched above the head and the feet in such a position as to make breathing very difficult, i.e. a position totally compatible with crucifixion. We can say that the man was wounded first (blood on the head, shoulders and back) and then 'crucified.'"

*"on reaching the destination, the body was placed face up and for unknown reasons, the cloth was taken off the head."


Dr. Alan Whanger, of Duke University, confirmed the similarities in the blood stain patterns between the Sudarium and the Shroud using the Polarized Image Overlay Technique. Dr. Whanger found over seventy congruent blood stain patterns on the face and over fifty on the back of the head and neck. This was independently confirmed by Thomas Vuke using computerized methods for assessing congruence of the blood stains.

Significantly, Swiss criminologist Dr. Max Frei, who identified 58 pollens on the Shroud, also found pollens on the Sudarium that matched pollens on the Shroud thus linking both cloths to the Jerusalem environs.

In the summer of 1999, Israeli scientist Dr. Avinoam Danin, Professor of Botany at The Hebrew University in Jerusalem, told the International Botanical Congress in St Louis, Missouri, that:

There is no way that similar patterns of blood stains, probably of the identical blood type, with the same type of pollen grains, could not be synchronic - covering the same body...The pollen association and the similarities in the blood stains in the two cloths provide clear evidence that the shroud originated before the 8th Century.

Dr Danin has confirmed much of the work by Dr. Max Frei. He feels that certain pollens grains could only have come from an area in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

Other tests support the proposition that the Sudarium and the Shroud were both covering the same body at nearly the same time. Dr. Franca Pastore Trossello a forensic scientist at the University of Turin found that the fabric of the Shroud and the Sudarium are of a similar weave and texture suggesting a common origin. Nello Balossino, also from the University of Turin found that the traces of blood on both cloths match perfectly.

In summarizing the evidence, Guscin wrote:

There are many points of coincidence between all these points and the Shroud of Turin - the blood group, the way the corpse was tortured and died, and the macroscopic overlay of the stains on each cloth. This is especially notable in that the blood on the Sudarium shed in life, as opposed to post mortem, corresponds exactly in blood group, blood type and surface area to those stains on the Shroud on the nape of the neck. If it is clear that the two cloths must have covered the same corpse, and this conclusion is inevitable from all the studies carried out up to date, and if the history of the Sudarium can be trustworthily extended back beyond the fourteenth century, which is often referred to as the Shroud's first documented historical appearance, then this would take the Shroud back to at least the earliest dates of the Sudarium's known history. The ark of relics and the Sudarium have without any doubt at all been in Spain since the beginning of the seventh century, and the history recorded in various manuscripts from various times and geographical areas take it all the way back to Jerusalem in the first century. The importance of this for Shroud history cannot be overstressed.

Source: http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm

[anonymous_user]

D'Oh! Make that #61. I'm a dyslexic agnostic and don't believe in dog.

[Ann Archy]

You are so wrong...the "napkin" is in a different city...I'm sure another Freeper can provide the city.

In 55 year I have NEVER heard of another burial cloth of Jesus...where did you ever hear that?

The Catholic Church is very precise on these matters.

[el_chupacabra]

I saw Dr. Rabil's presentation on the Shroud about 11 years ago. It was extremely convincing and educational. I thought of it often while preparing myself to see the Passion.

If you ever are presented the opportunity to see his slide show (maybe he does powerpoint now?) please do so.

[Ann Archy]

You are wrong...sorry....do some research...you will be SHOCKED...or is that what you are AFRAID of?????

[hosepipe]

[ I understand and applaud a healthy skepticism, but your statements that "The Shroud of Turin is real ONLY if Jesus is NOT the Christ" and that God would have to be incompetent to allow such an artifact to exist make no sense, theological or otherwise. ]

I didn't accuse God of anything....
I believe Jesus is the Messiah.....
You already missed most of my post at least the most important parts and responded to an attack on the shroud when I playfully attacked far more than that. NO infinitely more than that.. Your faith in the shroud means nothing to me.. and it does take some serious faith. Believe it, go ahead.. I'm not your judge. I just voiced my opinion..

1) The question: What does a real God need with a religion, any religion- is prescient to me ?
2) Since Jesus came specifically to make ALL religion(s) obsolete anyway, AND DID..
3) Praise God...GO TO (1)