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Progress of SB 659 NOTIC! AMENDMENTS!
108th Congress site ^ | 2/27/04 | SELF

Posted on 02/28/2004 12:43:02 AM PST by Ms12Gauge

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To: lentulusgracchus
It's fair to say, unfortunately, that a majority of people have by now bought the lies that proponents of a Government of Inherent Authority (i.e. the Left meme) have been pushing.

Notwithstanding that RKBA is enshrined in the Constitution, relatively few people have the requisite understanding of the Framers' intentions, or the patience to learn, or even to defend their rights, that will be necessary to defend this right against the baying of the pack in years to come.

The Pew Center, in measuring America for its socialist knife, produced a typology of the American electorate in 1999. Only two or three of the nine or ten broad lifestyle blocs actually support RKBA. In the GOP, the business bloc or wing of the party is an especial danger. Dealing with money and people, and principally engaged in separating the former from the latter, businessmen have no love of the idea of an armed citizenry. Their guilty consciences love the idea of gun control. They are the most dangerous group to RKBA right now.

Watch out for signs that Bush/Ashcroft are "playing to lose" on RKBA issues. I realize that in the Emerson case, Ashcroft filed a brief stating that RKBA is an individual right. While that is a significant defi to offer the Left, what a lot of people missed was that Ashcroft and his Solicitor General, Ted Olson, didn't throw the other shoe: that the right cannot be infringed. They left the door open to "reasonable" gun control -- the kind the business community likes. The kind that will get your firearm, but not Donald Trump's or Punch Sulzberger's.

Thanks for the information. I had not heard of the Pew Center, nor their study. Is there a link where I can read about the entire study?

21 posted on 02/28/2004 8:34:33 PM PST by NRA2BFree (Proud member of the FR Rabid Right Wing Axis of EvilĀ®.)
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To: NRA2BFree
Is there a link where I can read about the entire study?

Metasearch on "Pew", "typology", "1999" or similar. That's how I found it after my old link went bad.

22 posted on 02/29/2004 2:28:04 AM PST by lentulusgracchus (Et praeterea caeterum censeo, delenda est Carthago. -- M. Porcius Cato)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; ...
Keep the pressure on your respective Senators, folks, even if you know they're anti-gun. Just do it! The work isn't done yet.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

23 posted on 02/29/2004 7:18:18 AM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism.)
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To: Ms12Gauge
BTTT
24 posted on 02/29/2004 9:42:42 AM PST by hattend
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To: lentulusgracchus; NRA2BFree; Everybody
lentulusgracchus;

Watch out for signs that Bush/Ashcroft are "playing to lose" on RKBA issues. I realize that in the Emerson case, Ashcroft filed a brief stating that RKBA is an individual right. While that is a significant defi to offer the Left, what a lot of people missed was that Ashcroft and his Solicitor General, Ted Olson, didn't throw the other shoe: that the right cannot be infringed. They left the door open to "reasonable" gun control --

_______________________________________


The henhouse door has been open for years [since '68] and there is no longer any need to "watch out". -- The evidence is clear..
The socialists in control of the Republican party are giving only lip service to our RKBA's. They clearly intend to regulate it to death.

25 posted on 02/29/2004 10:01:05 AM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but the U.S. Constitution defines conservatism; - not the GOP. .)
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To: Joe Brower
The Second Amendment...
America's Original Homeland Security!

We are winning ~ the bad guys are losing ~ trolls, terrorists and the democrats are sad ~ very sad!

~~ Bush/Cheney 2004 ~~

26 posted on 02/29/2004 11:04:21 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: tpaine
Well, I don't think they're socialists (yet), but I think Pew Trusts did us a favor when they got the RiNO's to speak up candidly -- that they don't support our RKBA. These guys are going to be a big, fat problem.

Just another flavor of elitist, AFAIC.

Molon labe, etc.

27 posted on 02/29/2004 6:45:14 PM PST by lentulusgracchus (Et praeterea caeterum censeo, delenda est Carthago. -- M. Porcius Cato)
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To: Ms12Gauge
Given all the crap attached, I'd rather so no gun bills being passed this year. No gun manufacturers protection, no AWB renewal, etc. And what does this amendment mean?

To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to require the provision of a child safety lock in connection with the transfer of a handgun.

What is a transfer? Any time a 4473 is required? What about private sales? What a stupid law.

28 posted on 02/29/2004 7:24:07 PM PST by cruiserman
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To: Ms12Gauge
I've been repeatedly writing my senators to either support an unamended S. 1805 or kill this amendment-o-fest!
29 posted on 02/29/2004 8:49:19 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (You play a good game, Osama, but the game is finished, now you die!)
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To: Ms12Gauge
bttt
30 posted on 03/01/2004 8:11:57 AM PST by TigersEye (Carrying a gun is a social obligation.)
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To: cruiserman
To amend chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, to require the provision of a child safety lock in connection with the transfer of a handgun.

What is a transfer? Any time a 4473 is required? What about private sales? What a stupid law.

They're taking it beyond that: even a trip to a gunsmith's, requiring entry on the 'smith's *bound book* record of work performed, would require return with a NEW trigger lock, which MUST bne of a type *approved by the manufacturer*...whose attorneys will of course insist be only those made/installed by the manufacturer themselves:

SA 2617 - SA 2633 have been proposed, and SA 2620, SA 2621, SA 2622, SA 2628, and SA 2630 have been agreed to by the Senate. SA 2620 is Boxer's "Child Safety Device Act of 2004," which requires licensees to provide a "locking device" with any handgun and gets the CPSC involved in regulation of such "locking devices." SA 2621 makes a variety of changes to the details of S. 1805. SA 2622 is the "Child Safety Lock Act of 2004," which requires licensees to provide the transferee of any handgun with a "secure gun storage or safety device."

SA 2622 also provides for immunity from a qualified civil liability action for a person who has lawful possession and control of a handgun and who uses a secure gun storage or safety device with a handgun.

SA 2628 makes an exception for "an action involving "a shooting victim of John Allen Muhammad or John Lee Malvo that meets 1 of the requirements under clauses (i) though (v)."

SA 2630 makes an exception for officers or employees of Federal, State, or local law enforcement agencies for civil actions that meet 1 of the requirements under clauses (i) through (v) of subparagraph (A).

Most problematic are SA 2620 and SA 2622, which collectively impose different requirements for devices that licensees must provide with handguns. The "locking devices" of SA 2620 will have to conform to standards to be promulgated by the CPSC, while the "secure gun storage or safety devices" of SA 2622 will have to comply with 921(a)(34). If S. 1805 becomes law with both SA 2620 and SA 2622, a licensee will have to comply with BOTH requirements. The extent to which CPSC follows or departs from 921(a)(34) will determine the extent to which a single device will be adequate to comply with both requirements. Also, while SA 2622 purports to prevent its immunity provision from establishing a standard of care, what liberal trial lawyer wouldn't try to make it do so? For those reasons, I think both SA 2620 and 2622 represent wedges to force open a door to increasing gun control laws.

There are a few potential pitfalls created by SA 2620 and SA 2622. One is that, under SA 2620, a "locking device" has to be "approved by a licensed firearms manufacturer for use on the handgun with which the device or locking mechanism is sold, delivered, or transferred...." Thus, it puts licensed firearms manufacturers in the position of having to approve "locking devices." I am not convinced that manufacturers might face some liability resulting from such approval, particularly when they are forced to comply with CPSC standards. For example, if the CPSC were to require manufacturers to file a form certifying their "locking device's" compliance with a standard and the device were found to somehow fall short of the standard, I could imagine that there might be an attempt to circumvent the supposed legal protection of S. 1805 by alleging that the manufacturer's erroneous certification form was a "false or fictitious oral or written statement with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of a qualified product," as excluded by SA 2621.

The requirement for such an approved "locking device" could also be problematic for transactions involving used handguns, as there would not necessarily be a manufacturer available to provide the required approval. Thus, SA 2620 could create a de facto ban on the sale of used handguns, particularly in states that require handguns to be transferred through dealers or in any state if a law were passed to close the supposed "gunshow loophole."

Additionally, the provisions of SA 2620 and SA 2622 could be particularly insidious for gunsmiths and pawnbrokers, both of whom are "dealers." For example, if a competition shooter were to take a very specialized competition handgun for a slight tune-up and the gunsmith were to perform some very simple procedure, such as replacing the recoil spring, and return the handgun to the customer, what is to prevent the gunsmith from having violated the requirements of SA 2620 and SA 2622 regarding having to provide a "locking device" and a "secure gun storage or safety device" with the handgun, even if the customer already possessed such devices for the handgun. Likewise, even the return of a customer's handgun to that same customer by a pawnbroker could arguably give rise to such a requirement even if the customer already possessed adequate devices for securing the handgun. Even more insidiously, if the CPSC were to change the standards for a "locking device" prior to the return of the handgun to the customer, an argument could be made that a violation of the provisions of SA 2620 and/or SA 2622 would occur. Moreover, even if a gunsmith or pawnbroker were to provide an improved "locking device" meeting a modified CPSC standard, if such an improved "locking device" were not approved by "a licensed firearms manufacturer for use on the handgun," an argument could be made that the improved "locking device" still did not comply with the provisions of SA 2620.

As can be readily seen from the foregoing examples, S. 1805, as amended, is of dubious effectiveness for limiting civil liability of federal firearms licensees and, more likely, creates legal impediments and pitfalls not only for licensees, but also for firearms consumers. Based on that analysis, I would recommend asking one's Senators to vote against S. 1805, as amended.


31 posted on 03/01/2004 5:48:07 PM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
I've been repeatedly writing my senators to either support an unamended S. 1805 or kill this amendment-o-fest!

I have been faxing, hoping to be heard. Same message. Frist on my list several times.. taking apart various "amendments" and explaining why they are cloaked examples of absolute socialism.. which we the PEOPLE are prepared to fight, "tooth and nail".

32 posted on 03/03/2004 10:09:16 PM PST by Ms12Gauge (Colorado! Join us to restore your parental rights, and stop CPS from stealing your kids!)
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To: archy
All I needed to know about SA 2620 is the author!!!
33 posted on 03/03/2004 10:12:49 PM PST by Ms12Gauge (Colorado! Join us to restore your parental rights, and stop CPS from stealing your kids!)
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To: Ms12Gauge
Vote was yesterday. It's over.
34 posted on 03/03/2004 10:16:40 PM PST by alaskanfan
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