Bush's service record criticized (Maxy Cleland ALERT )

boston.com ^ | 01/31/2004 | Patrick Healy

[Terry Mross]

I served from '69 to '73 and I can tell you it usually took some "pull", knowing someone with connections, to get into the Guard. People went in so they wouldn't get drafted. That's the truth. Clinton tried to get in the reserves for the same reason. Then the lottery was instituted and he got a high number so he blew off the reserves. Sorry, but that is a fact about the NG in the sixties and early seventies. But, that does not make serving in the guard dishonorable. Now days the guard is going to war if there is one.

[Welsh Rabbit]

If you can stomach visiting DU, they've had several threads on B&S in the General Discussion: 2004 Primary forum over the past few days. You could probably find one within the first couple of pages. There're mostly posted by Dean fanatics trying to discredit Kerry; quite fitting that the most mentally unbalanced of the DUers would go for Dean.

[Mo1]

not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard," said Cleland

Hey Cleland .. Kerry didn't finish his tour in Vietman or in the States

He requested an early leave from both

[deport]

Maybe he had some pull and maybe he didn't..... But the poster 'earplug' has made a blatant statement that Bush jumped '500 waiting in line'.... That's a damn lie but the poster has ran and won't post his source for it..... That's all I'm after... just for him to post his source or admit he's wrong and spreading untruths.

Yes there were waiting lines for certain positions in the guard.... but pilots? Jumping 500...... Come on.......

[Destro]

The Guards in the years that Bush served did not operate like the guard of today. So your statements are dated and wrong for that reason. The call up of the reserves and guards was built into the system post Vietnam as a brake- to ensure that no president would ever take the professional army to war in such a way that the American people could ignore.

[OldFriend]

Maxy is more valuable to the dems for having lost his election. The dems blame the repubs for saying Maxy was unpatriotic because he criticized the administration.

LIES LIES LIES and more LIES....but why bother with the truth.

[bushfamfan]

The Demonrats really are a party of lost souls. Shameless, disgraceful. I think Kerry is really today's Benedict Arnold and I'm sick of him building up himself in saying what a hero he is. He doesn't come over very well. We've had plenty of true war heroes in GHWBush and Dole and yet who did the Demonrats give us but Clintoon. Didn't hear anything from these traitors who disrespect their country. Kerry needs to be shown with Clintoon to get the message across that he is not acceptable as Commander-in-Chief just because of his military service while Clintoon is the epitome of that party on military matters. All they offer up is a Kerry now. An anti-American, anti-military phony. HW Bush could have taken advantage and gotten a leave of his military duty during WW2, but stayed on. Kerry takes advantage of 3 Purple Hearts with very minor scrapes to come home and turn on those fighting over there in defending the North, while demonizing GIs as rapists, etc. in testimony, to throwing medals that were supposedly 'his'-and look at the cover of that book 'the New American Soldier'!! The treatment of our flag, what's up with that? That's what the Demonrats have to offer in glory and shall we talk about Kerry's ACTUAL RECORD in gov't in regards to our national security and military. It's all up for scrutiny and will be up to voters to really say if this is such a great man and great record that is worthy of being Commander-in-Chief. He's got a very weak record on military matters and is what you'd expect from a Demonrat quite frankly. There's no getting away from his record and it is a legitimate target that is one that will do him in. They are a sick bunch.

[petercooper]

This Cleland dude must be so worked up with anger and hatred- Oh like most DemocRATS!

heh heh heh

[bushfamfan]

What would be the probability that he could have been a pilot in one of the other services of the military? Is it true the Air National Guard was looking for pilots? It's just interesting he wouldn't have taken a desk job rather than flying one of those jets. His whole life basically follows what his father did. He wanted to learn to fly in a part of our armed services. Grant it, it ended up being the Guard.

[Lael]

Max Cleland of Georgia

I could say something, but it would probably get deleted by the Moderator!

I'm just glad that Bozo got deleted from the Senate in 2002!

[Terry Mross]

It's obvious "earplug" is an idiot who believes everything any Bush hater tells him. Jumping over "500" is probably a stretch but I'm sure he did get in where others couldn't. My brother in law got in with pull from a state representative. He lived in Arkansas and had to join a unit in Mississippi. All NG units were filled to the max during the late sixties while the draft was still in effect. My brother in law was 28, had played pro football for a year, was a teacher and high school coach, married with a kid and he was 1-A so he got in the NG. I'm sure I could have gotten in but instead I joined the Navy. In all honesty I never had much respect for those who pulled strings to keep from getting drafted. There weren't a lot of Guardsmen who went to Viet Nam. In this day and age joining the NG simply means it has to be a pretty big war but, still, the odds are pretty good you're going active before your hitch is up.

The problem I have with people like "earplug" (an appropriate name, by the way) is they let Clinton get by, they won't say a thing about Gore having body guards in Nam....if a dem actually served he's a freakin' hero but if a repub served it means nothing. If a dem dodged the draft he was "standing up for his beliefs" but if a republican dodged it by joining the NG he's a freakin' deserter. The two things I hate about democrats are their faces.

[deport]

I suspect someone may have spoken on his behalf... so what it happens all the time...... Pilots from his unit served in Viet Nam during 69-70. I'd have to go look it up for the precise numbers but the 147th had some 156 openings at the time of which 26 or 28 were officer slots which is what he secured. In addition they had a few pilot slots [3 or 4] open.... And they had an applicant that possessed two things they required for a pilot.... 1)passed the entrance test 2) had a year or more free to attend Pilot training.... bingo he was accepted and off to school learning to fly the 102.

[hgro]

"We need somebody who has felt the sting of battle, not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard," said Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam, in a reference to allegations that Bush, who stopped flying with the Texas Air National Guard in 1972, did not fulfill the last two years of his military obligation.

As I recall, Cleland's injuries were not combat related but were sustained when someone accidentally activated a grenade. True?

[jwalsh07]

Max Cleland needs to stifle his bitterness, it is going to consume him.

[Timesink]

*terrorism has been exaggerated*....Kerry....We must defeat him, our lives depend on it.

Kerry has so much wrong with him, and such a gigantic paper trail, that if we don't defeat him, we don't DESERVE to win.

(Assuming Kerry gets the nomination in the first place, that is. First Dean was anointed incorrectly, now everyone's assuming it's Kerry. We just don't know yet.)

[Timesink]

I can't imagine in what context Hollings said this. If this had been true...Normandy never would have happend....Iwo Jima never would have happened etc...

I wonder what Old Foghorn's public position is on Hiroshima. The original plans for the invasion of Japan expected ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the men on the front lines of the invasion to die. You don't get much more "certain to be killed" than that.

[hgro]

More on Cleland from Washington Post readers postings:

The truth is is that he (Cleland) caused the injury himself; it was his "own" grenade that exploded because he was goofing around.
The only "hero" he has been is on how to spend everyone elses money while he lives off of yours. He has never held a full-time job where taxpayer money wasn't funding it.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Kerry, Max Cleland and anyone else who questions this Presidents service better hope they never run into either of us. We have a lot of things to say to Kerry in light of his actions and words about fellow Vietnam Vets. Questions about groups he belonged to and what he did with medals at the whitehouse. And he should remember there are always camera's rolling.

National Gaurdsmen have been called up since 1916. Vets Husband served in Nam with a Gaurdsman. So shame on Kerry or anyone else for trying to diminish their patriotism or sacrifice and service to this country! Has Kerry looked on the Wall?

See this link for the *HISTORICAL* record of *FEDERAL* call-ups since 1916:

<http://www.ngaus.org/newsroom/guard101-callups.asp

I'd like to see him fly the equipment our Commander in Chief flew! Not everyone is capable of doing it, or everyone could and you wouldn't have people wash out of flight school all the time! Having watched this President as Governor of Texas, and now as President, there is no doubt he would have done some major A** kickin as a fighter pilot in combat. It is that determination to win, his fortitude and "can do" attitude that makes people (our enemies and those wanting to harm us too) and his opponents in this race to try and come out and say and do the things they are trying to do! But it won't work. Not if we won't let it. (Because now they've gone beyond the pale folks!)

So call Sen. Kerry's bluff.

Ask him to explain this:

1968-1969 USS Pueblo/ Vietnam - During the Vietnam war, 102 Air National Guard units, consisting of 10,511 personnel mobilized. This included four tactical fighter squadrons. The Largest Army units to mobilize were the 29th Infantry Brigade and the 69th Infantry Brigade. Thirty-four Army Guard units consisting of 12,234 personnel mobilized. Of the 12,234, 2,729 went to Vietnam with their units, while 4,311 were later sent to Vietnam as fillers.

Lastly, reading this article one would almost think the DEM's would like us to go back to the day when there were RIOTS in the streets. Perhaps they *long* for those days?

I think they FEED on Chaos. Afterall, they loved the Clinton years! Look what that got us! (Hint: recession, fake Dotcom's, corporate greed and corruption resulting in a collapse of the stock market, an attack on American soil, and the resulting wars to fight the terrorism that was allowed to proliferate under the Clinton administration. An increase in Aids infections. Poor countries got poorer. N. Korea was lying under Clinton's nose and WAS building on it's Nuclear capabilities, and was sure enough, soon able to have a Nuke! The list goes on!).

ALL BECAUSE WE HAD A DEM AS PRESIDENT FOR 8 LONG YEARS!!

We better all fall on our collective KNEE's and PRAY this administration stays right where it is.

We have a President that doesn't have to SHOVE his face in the camera trying to take credit for everything that happens, but allows the people doing the work to take credit. President Bush is humble and real.

We have an administration that is BUSY trying to undo the mess they inherited.

Now lets get BEHIND our troops, and BEHIND this awesome COMMANDER IN CHIEF, who just happens to have THREE YEARS EXPERIENCE AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF, which Kerry does NOT HAVE!!

[Timesink]

If you can stomach visiting DU, they've had several threads on B&S in the General Discussion: 2004 Primary forum over the past few days. You could probably find one within the first couple of pages. There're mostly posted by Dean fanatics trying to discredit Kerry; quite fitting that the most mentally unbalanced of the DUers would go for Dean.

The RATS had better be very, very careful how they tread here. Over the last five to ten years, The Democratic Party has lost its cohesion as its members have become consumed by identity politics and shifted their allegiance to some special interest group (unions, blacks, enviromentalists, etc) over party loyalty. As a result, they have lost a number of elections. The various factions practice puke politics in order to win the primary (for example, in the 2001 NYC mayoral election the two main Democratic candidates viciously pitted African-Americans against Hispanics), and as a result the losing side in the primary becomes so alienated and angry they refuse to vote in the general election at all. Thus the GOP candidate wins.

The RATS are very close to fracturing their base in a similar fashion in the presidential primaries this year, particularly amongst the Deaniacs. Dean may well even go third party. If he does, it'll be like Nader in 2000, except that they may lose three times as many voters this time.

[Welsh Rabbit]

Dean may well even go third party. If he does, it'll be like Nader in 2000, except that they may lose three times as many voters this time.

If so, without a doubt.

The Deaniacs clearly feel they were robbed of a nomination that was rightfully theirs (it's looking like a lasting legacy of 2000 is a tendency for many RATS to refuse to accept a legitimate defeat). The S&B conspiracy theorists are an extreme example, but a significant amount believe there was a consorted effort by their own party and the media to destroy Dean. Some place the shadowey Boogeyman Rove behind it, but most blame falls on Kerry and the DNC establishment. A lot of this is simply because a large amount of Dean's following is young and completely new to politics. The naive newbies perceive the vicious politics-as-usual as unfair attacks against them. For instance, Dean's various gaffes that were caught on tape, edited, and replayed around the clock on the 24-hour news channels was seen as an organized media conspiracy by his followers. This is just an accepted fact of life for most of us GOPers; there will always be Dan Quail spelling bee moments. Many other factors coming together, such as the nature of a personality driven campaign or the rapid fall from frontrunner status, has resulted in an "us against them" mentality towards all the other Democrats.

Although DU doesn't necessarily represent ordinary Democrats, the dynamics between the Deaniacs on the board with the other DUers is very revealing. While the supporters of the other candidates bicker with one another, they are solidly united in ABB (DU term: about beating Bush), meaning they will vote for whoever wins the nomination. Dean supporters is the only group that has a significant number who won't pledge support in the creepy ABB oaths frequently held at DU. Deaniacs have taken to highjacking many of the other candidates threads on DU and dominating the discussion with accusations and insults. Many are "Dean or Green" and some have even claimed they will vote for Bush out of spite. If Dean went third party, it would definately be a Nader multiplied situation for the RATS this election. They also remind me of LaRouche followers; I could easily see them devoting themselves to disrupting the campaigns of the other RATS out of spite.