Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Look before We Leap: Scandinavia and the End of Marriage
BreakPoint ^ | 30 Jan 04 | Chuck Colson

Posted on 01/30/2004 12:59:29 PM PST by Mr. Silverback

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-97 last
To: Lorianne
But Mr. Kurtz also acknowledged in his article that the number of children living in two parent households is higher in Norway, than in the USA. The poverty rate is much lower and the teen conception rate is much lower as well.

It won't last. Undermine the family, and all manner of social pathologies will explode.

In fact, whether both parents together support/care for/raise their children is more important than marriage per se.

"In fact"? You mean, "in rhetoric." First of all, your statement was normative, not factual, and secondly, you set up a false dichotomy between loving, unmarried parents and unloving, married ones. That's the same rhetorical game pro-gay marriage activists use. Marriage is the best means ever devised to ensure that people properly raise their children. Without marriage ... well, just walk though any black urban, American neighborhood.

81 posted on 01/30/2004 8:48:33 PM PST by mrustow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Lorianne
When we had "fault" divorce ... who, if anyone, was punished and how? Were men and women equally punished for the same "faults"?

Do you seriously believe that if fault divorce were re instituted that women would be ravaged by the court system? Do you think that might have some impact on the fact that women file more more than 2/3 of the divorces in the US? Are you afraid that women might not get custody in 90% of the custody cases if fault was put back into the system? Yes, lost of women get screwed over by the current system. So do a lot of men. What's the harm in actually taking into consideration who was responsible for breaking up the family? Let the chips fall where they may. Do you think that the one person in the marriage who either had an affair, or took up a cocaine habit, or assaulted their spouse, or took off with someone else, or abused the kids should not have that held against them in a divorce? Should someone be allowed to break up a family simply because the don't feel like they are "growing" or are feeling "unfulfilled?"

82 posted on 01/30/2004 8:50:43 PM PST by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: seamole; Lorianne
I'm not looking for anything else, because something already exists that does the trick: lifelong marriage. Many people do not get married today intending to remain together for life, regardless of consequence. This is wrong and evil. It is the product of our culture and of state programs and attitudes which promote cohabitation as "just as good" as marriage, and which promote divorce as the key to personal happiness.

One party is being left out of the discussion: sin. All this "sin is as good as virtue" liberalism/libertarianism/libertinism does sin no favors. What fun can shacking up be, if it's sanctioned as the equal of wedlock? These muddlers not only hate virtue, they hate vice just as much!

83 posted on 01/30/2004 8:59:17 PM PST by mrustow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: Orangedog
You're still not answering the question. How did "fault" divorce work back in the good old days? How did it deter divorce? How were those at "fault" punished? What did they lose?

I'm not afraid about cutstody because I advocate joint custody of kids as the default. I don't believe in using the kids to punish a parent.
84 posted on 01/30/2004 9:32:17 PM PST by Lorianne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: seamole
And a marriage is a "relationship" of an entirely superior and deeper character than any other "relationship" that can be construed from one man and one woman.

You can make empty assertions all day, but don't expect anyone else to construe it as an argument. Since your "say so" isn't worth jack, I'll feel free to ignore you until you can assert something more substantial than your feelings on the matter.

Sheesh. You've got a brain, so make an argument that is compelling. I'm willing to listen if you can make a case, but all you've done is assert some ivory tower bullshit.

85 posted on 01/30/2004 9:40:20 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

Comment #86 Removed by Moderator

To: mrustow
No, I didn't set up that dichotomy. I'm saying that parents have an obligation to their children whether they are married or not. I didn't say anything about loving and unloving parents.

Marriage is the best means ever devised to ensure that people properly raise their children. Without marriage ... well, just walk though any black urban, American neighborhood.

I disagree. First off the benefits of marriage for children is lost when parents divorce because we have set up a system where children lose the parental support/care of one parent upon divoce.

Secondly, it sets up a caste system whereby we divide children into two groups, one group which are deserving of parental support/care of BOTH parents .. and one group which isn't. The expectations are that if the parents aren't married the child deserves less than the care/support of both parents.

This becomes a self-fulfilling cycle. The obligations of parents toward their children are dependent on marriage. This is the long legacy of the "bastard" class, which never wrought anything good for children.

In your example of the Black neighborhood, both parents aren't supporting and parenting their kids BECAUSE WE DON'T EXPECT THEM TO if they are not married. If we did expect and obligate parents to care for and support their kids irrespective of their marital status children would not be caught in a socially sanctioned caste system.

87 posted on 01/30/2004 9:45:14 PM PST by Lorianne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: seamole
Like I said, you ought to do some studying up on the subject.

Don't run and hide, make a case. A rigorous, reasonably objective case for your position. I don't give a crap about anyone's opinion in the absence of a damn good reason that can stand on its own.

Thinking that I should listen to your feelings on the matter based on some personal belief of yours is pure liberalism. Your feelings and personal beliefs don't mean jack if you can't ground your position from the core principles of reality. "Marriage" is an arbitrary label. It means nothing to a real relationship. Any relationship that requires that affirmation to be strong is shallow ipso facto and not worth the paper you'll receive from the state for the effort.

What, precisely, does marriage bring to a strong committed relationship that isn't already there? Don't tell me what it means to you, tell me the pragmatic real world benefit it adds to a relationship that is otherwise indistinguishable other than having the official "marriage" tag provided by the state.

88 posted on 01/30/2004 9:55:17 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: Lorianne
I'm not afraid about cutstody because I advocate joint custody of kids as the default. I don't believe in using the kids to punish a parent

I know that we aren't afraid of that because we see eye to eye on that issue.

And as far as how fault worked 35 years ago, well, that was 35 years ago. Society walked away from it and we ended up with a 50%+ divorce rate. I submit that if we bring back fault we will have fewer divorces. I don't think we can get any worse than we are now.

It's late...I'll check this again in the morning.

89 posted on 01/30/2004 10:19:08 PM PST by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

Comment #90 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
It might be TECHNICALLY true that a couple could live together in a loving and committed fashion for a lifetime without ever marrying, but the reality is that acceptance of such relationships is destructive.

The rise of cohabitation isn't the result of devoted, loving couples deciding they don't need a "piece of paper from the state" to solidify their already committed relationship. It's the result of people wanting some of the benefits of marriage while leaving an opening to easily walk out if they change their mind.

When a man, for example, asks a woman to move in with him, he's essentially taking her for a test drive. That's pretty much the essence of the cohabitation mentality. It's one of avoiding commitment, not proudly telling the world that your commitment rises above such mundane things as marriage licenses.

Isn't it true that unmarried couples have a higher break-up rate that married couples? And I believe it's also true that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who don't.
91 posted on 01/30/2004 10:49:42 PM PST by puroresu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

Comment #92 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
I'm not trying to make a case for you. I am trying to call you an idiot.

But as one, you aren't very competent at it.

You did not address a single point I made in a coherent rigorous manner. I'm sure it makes it makes you feel all warm and cozy to shout platitudes while curled up in your pathetic little world, but from where I stand you simply look like another liberal wuss getting all hot and bothered over your "feelings". You are incapable of making a concrete argument, as though the world needs another slackjawed nobody's opinion on something they are profoundly ignorant of.

Post again when you get out of high school. We don't need people like you proving once again that not only are we descended from monkeys, but that we haven't fallen far from the tree.

93 posted on 01/30/2004 11:22:31 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

Comment #94 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
I do not want to talk with you.

Then why do you insist on talking to me? Are you lonely? I understand that for the low, low price of $1.95 per minute, there are phone numbers you can call with someone who really cares on the other end of the line.

I have no particular desire to talk to you either, as you aren't very interesting. There are plenty of intelligent people on this forum I could converse with, but I'm a sucker for hard cases.

95 posted on 01/30/2004 11:44:33 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: tortoise
Feh. I'm done here. I'll let others spin their wheels over nothing.
96 posted on 01/30/2004 11:49:21 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Silverback; Lorianne; RobRoy; Orangedog
See this :

Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality ^

97 posted on 02/21/2004 8:08:52 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States - and war is what they got!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-97 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson