Let me see if I have this straight...

Yahoo News ^

[spunkets]

"even though many of us here have experienced the very thing that you claim isn't happening...God willing, you will never experience what it feels like for your job to be terminated and someone in Mumbai hired as your replacement.

It's happened to me lots of times. I move on to the next enterprise, whatever that may be. God willed Freedom not the security of guarantees and protection. If those folks in Mumbai learn how to do stuff and compete with others around the world that's a good thing.

[TLI]

Take less pay.

Yet another brilliant, in depth, insightful analysis of an economic situation perpetrated upon the American people by a bunch of corporate carpetbagging offshore sellouts that could greatly benefit from a vigorous A$$ KICKING.

Take less pay…. K. M. A.

[tyen]

Man spunkets, you have just been getting dumped on in this thread. Let me just pipe up and say I agree with you. As an owner of a new consulting business in IT (one year and counting...looks like we'll make it past the infant mortality stage of three years with the sales channels we're steadily developing), I have had plenty of time to observe the IT staff at many of my clients' sites.

I cut my teeth as an Unix SA almost two decades ago at a very low rate, lower than what the offshore companies charge, even accounting for inflation. All on site work. No benefits. I now bill out at 2200% more, all expenses paid, and about 30% of my billable time is performed remotely from my home office. Selling 1,000 hours per year is not a problem. With this kind of gross income, purchasing benefits is not something I lose sleep over. Next year I'll likely be on a project full time, 2,000 hours, all expenses paid; we went through a protracted sales cycle last quarter and are just now waiting for some fixed assets (software licenses) to depreciate enough to justify starting the project for the client. I perform the sales work myself, and enjoy this "soft" side of the business. I actually kind of dread billing out that much because it leaves me precious little time to develop other aspects of the business. One day into every project, at no point did any of my clients ever consider going offshore or anyone else for that matter. I have a 100% delivery and satisfaction record, and 20% of my available time is booked ahead of time each year for repeat business. It was not hard to reach this point, but it did take a lot of work. Anyone with moderate IQ and disciplined drive could do it.

The attitude of most IT staff at my clients could best be described as insular entitlement. Most don't make allies with the staff at the business units they serve.

Though rare, I have seen IT staff characterized as indispensable to the revenue generating side of the business. A "touch anything else, but don't you dare touch that because we can't survive without them" response immediately comes from these units if the C-levels even think in the direction of the IT folks. It's relatively easy to become a sacred cow to these powerful business units: use your knowledge to either make them look good, or make their lives easier. Rinse and repeat, never resting on the laurels they heap upon you. Never show irritation, annoyance, or short tempers, always go the extra mile to help them.

To say that most IT staff in general (no matter where they are based) don't meet this ideal is an understatement. It is no wonder that some IT staff are treated like commodities when they commoditize themselves with their unhelpful service delivery that is like almost everyone else's. Now I'm a modest coder. I code better than anyone I've met at a client site, but have friends (running their own business as well, as it happens, a program trading firm) who run rings around me. That differentiation helps, but at the end of the day, knowing how to work with managers, identify business requirements and map them to a successful implementation, and understanding basic business and sales principles counts more.

Gotta get back to writing up some proposals, so I'll try to wrap it up quickly here. Folks, if any of you have been in the IT business for longer than 5 years, you cannot say you were blindsided with this surge in offshoring. Any moderate reading of the industry trade magazines would have told you starting at least 15 years ago that companies will no longer stand for highly compensating pure technical specialists only getting technical work out of the compensation, and that business relevance would become an increasingly dominant component of measuring an IT staff's value. Understand and apply basic business sense, and you'll find it easy to demonstrate your value against all competition, no matter who it is.

[Reelect President Dubya]

Take less pay…. K. M. A.

I think I see the problem.

It's not the economy.

Lots of people get IT jobs in your area every single day, probably doing the exact same thing you used to do.

It's just that bitter, unpleasant people who blame everybody else for everything are not very attractive hiring candidates.

[Wombat101]

Then the guy gets fired, but has rights...Duhhhhh!

[TLI]

It's just that bitter, unpleasant people who blame everybody else for everything are not very attractive hiring candidates.

So that is supposed to explain why I am still working in the IT business? I am not a good candidate? NO. I am STILL hanging on to MY job in MY chosen field because I am DAMN good at what I do and kicked a$$ to keep my job,,, THAT'S why.

Few in my field have my background in Airborne Infantry and understands the value of getting in the face of corporate "management" and "explaining" the superiority of getting something done right the first time, having the ability to speak to a customer in English, NOT "engrish" and fixing the problem on the FIRST CALL to IT.

That is why I STILL have my job, I am just getting SICK and TIRED of having to "explain" the obvious to my "superior management" on a daily basis.

As far as "taking less pay" to grovel and keep my job...

That BS can KMA. I will not do that and actively support any other of my u.S. Citizen fellow employees that do the same as I.

Of course, if you wish to grovel and beg for what was yours to begin with, go right ahead. In the end it will get you nothing but a bootprint in your back.

TLI

[Reelect President Dubya]

You are so special.

[TankerKC]

Duhhhhh!

Thanks for the thoughtful commentary. Here’s something to ponder, assuming you can get past the “duh” stage. If a Chinese, Pakistani or Russian "replacement worker" makes a mistake, it is an issue of national importance. But, if an American worker makes the same mistake, he (individually) is responsible and gets fired. Why the difference?

[spunkets]

"Understand and apply basic business sense, and you'll find it easy to demonstrate your value against all competition, no matter who it is."

Thanks for that excellent illustration. The same applies to all fields and formal ed levels.

[spunkets]

"If a Chinese, Pakistani or Russian "replacement worker" makes a mistake, it is an issue of national importance."

How so?

[TankerKC]

How so?

I'm just summarizing Wombat's position. I don't believe it to be true.

[Wombat101]

The difference, in a nutshell, is this:

The mistake or crime commited here, by a native-born IT professional,is his alone and therefore he is held responsible for it.

The mistake or crime committed by a foriegn worker in a foriegn country is MANAGEMENT'S mistake -- They hired folks, sight unseen, on another continent. And the worker usually does not work for the company, per se, but is rather (usually) someone hired by a contracted firm to work on the company's behalf. In effect, he is BEYOND the company in terms of oversight, disciplanry measures, etc., and is subject to the laws of whatever country he happens to be in, not AMERICAN law.

Yes, a sufficiently big customer can request to have the foriegn screw up sh*tcanned, but there's no guarentee that he will be. In the end, it doesn't matter because he is replaceable in the sense that there 20-50 other guys willing to work for what an American would consider slave wages without bennies.

The crux of the issue at the end of the day is what is cheaper for the firm, not neccesarily what is best for the firm. When you're getting adequate for less rather than adequate for more, you tend to be more demanding, and even more ruthless. The pain threshold is not neccesarily all that high, because in some oxymoronic way, someone, somewhere still realizes that you get what you pay for (unless it becomes necessary to think otherwise), but as long as it's adequate you do not care. You only care when you have the opportunity to make some other poor a**hole's life miserable and when you need to save your own butt.

[Wombat101]

I agree with you 100%, and will go a bit further..I started out 18 years ago as a computer operator, worked my way up to Data Center Manager, then into programming (systems automation) and NEVER spent a day in college. None of this stuff is rocket science, it's the application of LOGIC.

As for not taking sh*t from the company, I walked out 10 months ago when they made me feel like a "bonus whore" with 70 hour weeks and lost weekends/holidays, and got nothing for it, even though they were reporting RECORD PROFITS six quarters in a row.

I will never touch a mainframe again in my life, and as for Wall Street, the suits can get stuffed. I'm sick and tired of the dumbest surviving the Darwinian process by political manuvering and on the backs and brains of others and getting kicked upstairs for it. I've met plenty of managers in my 18 years of whom it can be said could not find their oiwn posteriors with two hands and a flashlight...

[TankerKC]

It is great to see that you progress beyond the "duh" stage. You nice long post comes down to two points:

1. You don't like immigration (or the workplace competition that it brings). So much so that you are willing to set up a strawman for your argument.

2. You are bitter.

My suggestion (based on your next post): Since you are so much smarter than "management" and know so much about what is right for a company, start one of your own.

Best of luck.

[TLI]

I must be really stubborn, I am hitting the shower in about 2 min, to head back to the shark pen. It's not so much the money, I like how grateful most people are when they get an English speaking, highly experienced "guide" that can lead them out of the mess of their "factory configured" computer.

Maybe next I will pass myself off as being a reclusive nerd and go back to running networks for law firms...... naaa.