ARTILLERY: Marine Mortar Replaces Howitzer

StrategyPage.com ^ | January 16, 2004

[tortoise]

180 HP? That has got to be wrong.

Not at all. They need torque to move that weight, not horsepower. This is normal for diesel engines, modest horsepower and mountains of torque; it is why diesels tow so well. It may be 180HP, but it also is probably around 500 ft-lbs of torque.

[CatoRenasci]

Y'p that's probably why the marines like 'em. But, the marines have always liked mortars, they hated giving up their 60mm back in the '60s.

Commanche County ping!

[Darksheare]

Got to see an M-198 self fold.. after the barrel was cranked to the ground.
That crew did an oops.

[Lurker]

Whaddya think?

L

[neverdem]

This being breech loaded, do you know if it can fire at low angles or direct fire like a howitzer? If it only fires high angle, what's the reason to abandon traditional muzzle loading mortars.

[Uncle Meat]

Anybody remember the days of 8" artillery[M110 howitzers]?They were eventually replaced with the MLRS.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

I know the Marines weren't getting Crusader. I just mentioned it because these are tough times for artillerymen. The Air Force wants to take over the fire support business altogether, the Army wants to convert them to MP's, and now the Marines want to replace howitzers with mortars. Cannoneers are going to be gettin' mighty scarce.

I think the Marines are at least making sure they retain organic all-weather fire support capability. They have always been real big on close air support, but they seem to be resisting the push to make the ETAC the king of the battlefield.

[Dead Dog]

LOTS OF FING TORQUE!

[SAMWolf]

Bump

[Orangedog]

I'm still waiting for 'Atomic Annie' to make a comeback. ;) 280mm's of tactical nuclear fun!

[neverdem]

Got to see an M-198 self fold.. after the barrel was cranked to the ground. That crew did an oops.

What happened, too much powder charge for direct fire? What do you mean "self fold"? Could you be a little more descriptive? Did it wreck the cannon mount or carriage? You got my curiosty going.

[archy]

Attach some sort of GPS guidance package to a mortor round and I am sure they could be just as accurate as a JDAM.

The good news is, you've got your wish. The bad news is, it's not our round. It's Russian, the Kitolov-2 120mm projectile for use in 120mm mortars. Range 9,000m, We'll be along shortly, I expect.

[RatSlayer]

"Well, I'm a redleg, so color me very sceptical of replacing rifled tube artillery with a mortar."

IMHO, rifle tubed artillery has already been obsoleted by airborne munitions since it is much easier to call in an air strike than it is to transport howitzers into firing range of the rapidly advancing spear heads.

The only advantage I see for howitzers is that they cost much less per round delivered on target. But since were are the USA, the cost issue is much lower in importance to the mobility issue.

Assuming the mortar tubes will travel with the spear heads, this is probably a good thing, since it will give them some firepower they didn't have when airpower was grounded and when the howitzers were lagging behind.

So I think it is really airpower that they see as the howitzer replacement and the mortars are just a backup for when you get your tit caught in a wringer and an air strike isn't immediately available.

[neverdem]

The 4.2" mortar had a rifled barrel. IIRC, a crew in Sicily during WW II got a round into the open hatch of a kraut tank.

Probable errors are always going to be greater when either a mortar or howitzer fire a high angle mission because of the greater trajectories as opposed to a direct fire or low angle missions with with howitzers.

[USMCVet]

This is the Lockheed-Martin EFSS candidate - there are several more systems being proposed for the Marine Corps including a couple of rifled 120mm mortars.

The article doesn't mention it, but the Corps is looking at 120s because the 155s are too heavy, bulky and slow moving for long distance air movements, such as for our Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare (EMW) missions. Towed 155s strongly handicap our ground maneuver forces too because they take 20 minutes to set up and they don't move very fast trying to keep up with LAVs, tanks, and armored amphibians.

A rifled 120 with a state-of-the art aiming system shoots very, very well - usually a CEP of 25 meters or so.

Have a look at the Dragon Fire Mortar during your web searches...for another version of the EFSS. The Dragon Fire can be towed behind a HMMWV or loaded onto a modified LAV as a form of fast SP artillery. About this time next year, the Dragon Fire will be capable of firing accurately on the move from its LAV platform.

If somebody would be kind enough to instruct me on how to put a photo on this thread, I'll show you what this puppy looks like.

Whole different world out there!

[300winmag]

Y'p that's probably why the marines like 'em. But, the marines have always liked mortars, they hated giving up their 60mm back in the '60s.

I think the Marines are going for short-range fire support, and letting other systems handle longer ranges. That's why they don't have eight-inch or MLRS systems.

One of the nice things about 155mm artillery is that there are lots of special-purpose rounds for it that aren't available in other systems. 155mm is to artillery what the Garand is to rifles.

[Atlas Sneezed]

Bang

[Tailback]

It's a diesel engine. For example, most 18 wheelers in the US have a 80,000 lb GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) and run anywhere from 250-400 horsepower. With Diesel engines the horsepower rating doesn't mean as much as torque.

[Tailback]

We'll be along shortly, I expect.

Not unless some palms get some serious greasing at the Pentagon.

[greydog]

I had the pleasure of being in on the 1st field test of the "copperhead" laser-guided round. I don't think it lasted long, too much of a hassle to set up a forward observer with laser sighting for all targets I think.

By the way, the first round fired had a premature deployment of the guidance fins and went end over end and landed about 500 yards away. Should have seen everybody trying to figure out which way it was pointed (it had a shaped charge warhead).