Immigration reform

San Diego Union Tribune ^ | 12/9/04 | Joseph Perkins

[joesnuffy]

Its quasi citizenship...that will eventually be parlayed up to full citizenship...once this camel's
nose is under the tent...it isn't going back to the desert, imo, its taking over the tent.....

[goldstategop]

Exactly. California is being bankrupted by cheap illegal alien labor. And the President wants to export it to other states? I don't think its worth it and for the future of our country, its time to draw the line.

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[ravingnutter]

I can't believe so many people have forgotten a basic fact that I learned in elementary school...the President does not make law, Congress does! Bush's plan will be in the cross-cut shredder the minute it hits Congress. There are currently two bills being considered, one in the Senate and one in the House:

House Version Sponsored by Tom Tancredo of CO

Senate Version Sponsored by John Cornyn of TX

We need to forget about Bush's plan and get on the Tancredo bandwagon by writing our Congress-critters!

[dalereed]

Cronyn has an editorial alongside Perkins in todays paper, I didn't post it because it had barf all over it!

He's a first class RINO!

[rhombus]

This article like so many other fails to say what SHOULD be done. Round 'em up, ship 'em out and post troops at the border? Perhaps but neither party is willing to do this. The Dems always say raise the minimum wage so we'll want to clean toilets. But when they've had their chances they pass out benefits to illegals rather than deporting them. And illegals still come and they work for less -- Yes some work for the big corporations but a lot work for small businesses who can't afford higher minimum wages, FICA payments, etc.. So keep them as faceless crim-aliens? Do nothing? Is that the alternative. The current proposal is so far from ever passing that the silver lining here is that Bush forced a discussion right before the Dem primaries. What will they propose? Or will they just Bush-bash?

[dalereed]

The INS isn't allowed to bother the illegals any more, 15-20 years ago there were INS vans all over town in N County San Diego rounding up the garbage but today you never even see them.

In this area the hundreds standing on the curb every morning waiting to be hired for day work act like they belong to a union according to people i've talked to demanding no less than $8/hr, transportation, and given lunch.

If INS would put plain clothes people out there and arrest everyone hiring the scum it might drive them back across the border.

[jimt]

Bingo !!

[BushCountry]

This debate is curious one.  However, I am stuck in the middle. I grew up on the south side of Chicago in a deeply Hispanic neighborhood, where I was the minority (blond haired blue eyed, now graying though). Several restaurants close to my house didn't even have an English speaking person in them, I had to point to an item on the menu for what I wanted (the seafood soup was unbelievably good).

What I observed is that most of the people in my neighborhood were honorable, hard working, and dedicated to their families. They loved their adopted home (America) and they loved Mexico. But, they hated their corrupt government (a hundred times more corrupt then here) and knew that only poverty and despair awaits them in their country of birth. They escaped to America to provide a better life for themselves in spite loving their home country.

In spite of what other posters claim, they would not willing play host to terrorists anymore then the average American. They do not deserve to be flung back across the border by catapults. Borders do not need to mined, thus blowing up families trying to escape poverty. For most of us, it is just quirk of fate that we were born in America and a little compassionate conservatism is called for.

I truly do not know all the answers to this problem and believe that there is no easy solution. So, with every thing being said, even with the reasoned debate on this thread, I have seen no real solutions discussed or debated.

I also want to bring a semblance of sanity to this debate.  Let us assume that there are 8 Million Illegal Aliens in the United States.  Since everyone is complaining about the ones crossing over from the Mexican border (hmmm... no comment), lets extract the immigrants from Mexico which are approximately 60% of the total.  For a grand total of 4.8 million illegal Mexican immigrants. There is approximately 300 million people in the United States and illegal Mexican immigrants make up a whopping 1.6% of the population!

Cliff Notes:

1. We would have lost World War II without importing immigrant intellect (everything from the atomic bomb to welding technology).
2. Slave labor immigrants built our railroads.
3. Irish, Jewish, and Italian immigrant children were a large part of our industrial boom (formation of child labor laws was based on their abuse).
4. We are nation of immigrants!
5. According to the most comprehensive study ever done on immigrants, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that in all their combined roles, immigrants make indispensable contributions to our economy.
6. By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. We are going to be in the minority, get use to it!

Immigration Information

1. The total number of immigrants per year (including illegal and refugees) is somewhat less than it was in the peak years at the start of the 20th century, when the US population was less half as large its current population. The rate of immigration relative to the population is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what is was in the peak years in the early part of the 20th century..
2. In the early part to of the 20th century (1910-1920) the major debate in politics was that immigrants form southern Europe were going to destroy this country.  Those sneaky "I"talians and the dirty Irishman would bring this country to ruination. It seems the hatred has shifted to immigrants from Mexico?
3. The U.S. government has forecast a shortage of 20 million workers by 2026 due to the aging baby boom and job growth.  Under the conditions that we now confront, we should be very carefully focused on the contribution which skilled people from abroad, (as well as) unskilled people from abroad, can contribute to this country, as they have for generation after generation.
4. By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. In the next fifty years this demographic shift will transform politics and business.  If us conservatives  lose the Hispanic vote, then we lose the nation.
5. In the last decade hi tech professional immigrants have made extraordinary contributions to cutting edge US industries. It is estimated that almost one quarter of Silicon valley firms were established by immigrants. 
6. Businesses founded by immigrants are a source of substantial economic and fiscal gain for U.S. citizens. Ten high-tech firms founded by immigrants (Intel, Sun Microsystems, Computer Associates, Solectron Lam Research, LSI Logic, AST Computer, Wang Laboratories, Amtel, Gupta Technologies, and Cypress Semiconductor) generated $32 billion in revenues in 2002. These and other businesses started by immigrants add at least another $29 billion to the total amount of taxes paid by immigrants.
7. Immigrant entrepreneurs have revitalized neighborhood; from Dominicans in Manhattan's Washington Heights to Cubans in Miami's Little Havana, Hispanic immigrants have transformed their communities into thriving economically dynamic strongholds.  Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.
8. The average education of new immigrants has been increasing with each successive generation. The proportion of adult immigrants with 8 or fewer years of education has been decreasing and the proportion of adult immigrants with 16 years or more has been increasing. The proportion of immigrants with bachelor 's or postgraduate degrees is much higher than the proportion of the native labor force.
9. Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggests the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services. A poll of the most respected economists found a consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically.  However overall immigrants fare well in terms of income with adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249).  There goes the low wage myth.
10. Most immigrants arrive in the United States in the prime of their working years. More than 70 percent of immigrants are over the age of 18 when they arrive in the United States. That means there are roughly 17.5 million immigrants in the United States today whose education and upbringing were paid for by the citizens of the sending country, not American taxpayers. The windfall to the United States of obtaining this human capital at no expense to American taxpayers is roughly $1.43 trillion. This makes immigrants a fiscal bargain for our country.
11. By the way, do you know the contribution of immigrants to the world war II effort and history. We would have lost World War II without an immigrant contribution.  Albert Einstein and his little Atomic Bomb, Welding Technology (we a stole two of these scientist from a German prison camp in France) that was required to build our war machine, A. Edward Teller the Manhattan project, B. Enrico Fermi he was instrumental in creating the first controlled nuclear fission chain reaction, A. Felix Frankfurter he served on the Supreme Court of the U.S. for 23 years, B. Andrew Carnegie eventually controlling 25% of American iron and steel production, C. Thomas Mann was one of the most acclaimed novelists of the 20th Century, ect...
12. According to the most comprehensive study ever done on immigrants, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) found that in all their combined roles, immigrants make indispensable contributions to our economy. They compose an increasingly essential proportion of our workforce. Through their tax payments, they help finance the costs of schools, health care, roads, welfare payments, Social Security, and the nation’s defense.
13. New immigrants are more concentrated than natives in the youthful labor force ages when people contribute more to the public coffer than they draw from it. Of all the important facts about immigration relevant to its economic effects, this is the most important and the one which is most consistent." (Cato Institute and National Immigration Forum).  Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.

[rhombus]

15-20 years ago there were INS vans all over town in N County San Diego rounding up the garbage but today you never even see them

Interesting to hear this. Let's see 15-20 years ago, who was President, who was Gov? And then I guess it became un-PC to round them up. What is the INS doing now?

[dalereed]

I won't work with them, besides being illegal, they are slow, lazy, have to be told every move to make, and their workmanship is sub standard.

I tell anyone that i'm working for that if they try to save money by hiring them they will have to find someone else to do their work, it's either don't hire them or I won't work for them.

They have flooded the construction industry and in doing so have forced me to charge at least 1/3 less than what I could if they weren't here.

[rhombus]

OK, what SHOULD we do? Nothing?

[Cyber Liberty]

Are those the only choice? Round 'em up & ship 'em out, or do nothing?

[dalereed]

"What is the INS doing now?"

almost nothing!

Most of them are sitting at the highway check points, 20 or more of their vehicles parked there waving cars through blocking traffic waiting for the one car that they have had a tip on.

[dalereed]

Pure garbage!

[jimt]

I won't work with them, besides being illegal, they are slow, lazy, have to be told every move to make, and their workmanship is sub standard.

That's a problem the market will solve.

We had some folks working at our place who were determined to be using false documents. It got them fired. But performance was not remotely an issue. Had it been they'd have been fired immediately - just like any poor performing citizen.

My concern with illegal aliens is their vacuuming the pockets of taxpayers for bennies for their families.

[Visalia]

Bush to America: "Read my lips. No new illegals."

Bush to Vicente Fox: "Kissy Kissy!"

[rhombus]

Are those the only choice? Round 'em up & ship 'em out, or do nothing?

I sure hope not, what else have you heard proposed? -- sound of crickets chirping -- :-)

[Cyber Liberty]

I dunno.. These are the only two choices I seem to ever hear about these days around here.