What's Wrong With the Proposals for a New Guestworker Program?

fairus ^ | jan 04 | fairus

[WOSG]

"The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit."

Agreed.

That is why the hyper-ventilation over this program is mis-placed.

The guest worker program is a way to channel the immigration and regularize the currently underground economy.

Too many here seem to not want ANY immigration. So let me ask you all: What is the proper amount of legal immigration (per year) in terms of our percentage of population?
(eg. 1%, 2%, etc.)
And what would be the best *reasons* for immigration? waiting job? family links? send a big check to the US govt?

"The euphemism "guest worker" used to describe this amnesty is a lie cloaked in fancy dress. " That is not a serious comment. I've refuted that point elsewhere. Amnesty is granting gree cards, and this doesnt do that. It's not amnesty.

"Those illegals who seek legal status have no loyalty to this country, nor have they pledged fealty to the United States of America. They come for financial and selfish gain...period." And many legal immigrants come for financial gain. What's the problem with that?

What if the 8 million illegals were swedish women coming here to staff tanning salons and snag ski instructor jobs. would you be that bent out of shape about it?

[Thumper1960]

If the solutions are too hard for you to handle, allow those of us who don't mind getting our hands dirty do the heavy lifting.

Dealing with it is the American way. Just letting things happen is a plan for disaster.

[Major_Risktaker]

[Kevin Curry]

CJ sees great virtue in Bush's modern-day plantation society where the new darkies contract to be indentured servants for three years. Someone needs to do those filthy, dreary, monotonous jobs that Massa CJ refuses to do.

[Thumper1960]

What if the 8 million illegals were swedish women coming here to staff tanning salons and snag ski instructor jobs. would you be that bent out of shape about it?

Again.

"The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit."

Swedish, Italian, Filipino, whatever.....the point is the same. Especially, in these times,..."The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit."

[WOSG]

I see your point, but makeup on a pig is still a pig. In other words, the key word you used was "controls". If we assume that it actually "controls" non-citizens in a manner conducive to assimilation, you're correct."

Whoa, the guest worker program encourages the workers to GO HOME, with the setaside for the money for soc sec ... thus serving exactly what you think would be appropriate. Non-assimilators return to country of origin!!

Now, I postulated in another post that this would likely lead to 3 streams of migrants: The 'stayers' who try to get green cards; 'revolving door workers'; and *deportees*.

"But by the very proposal I do not believe that to be the case. Even if "guest workers" they're still here and must assimilate; or destroy the culture that is supposed to assimilate them." This to me is beyond hype.. Get serious! Does hispanic TV "destroy your culture"? Whatabout Chinese restaurants? Or the ethnic neighborhoods in Chicago?

"I was talking about the projected numbers. Yes, you are quite right, historically the rates were not sufficient to do harm. But that's not what we're talking about in this forum. We're talking about proposals for future policy."

There is NOTHING in this Bush proposal that would come even close to the numbers of immigrants in the 1900 era. Any projections HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS PROPOSAL! So it is based on fearmongering IMHO.

"Characterize it as you like, but it's true."

A level of immigration no greater than we successfully absorbed before will destroy us? Hardly "true", more like a doomsday prediction that is contrary to our previous experience.

Look, I am for fixing the problems of illegal immigration. It's bad and we need to have the guts to enforce our laws. I am just against this specious, over-the-top chicken-little nonsense that the world will end because illegal alien workers that fix our roofs and mow our lawns are going to destroy America.

Get real, please.

"This has been proven time and again in history."
Like where? And dont say the Romans. I know my Roman history, and that's bunk.

[ableChair]

Uncle. I don't get it. What does that mean?

[gubamyster]

ping

[WOSG]

" Swedish, Italian, Filipino, whatever.....the point is the same. Especially, in these times,..."The point is not to eliminate immigration. It is to control who comes in and how many to admit."

Right. And so it does seem a wise policy to have a temporary guest worker program in the set of visas, so that we can let workers in without necessarily letting in the whole family, the way green cards would.

Who comes in. Okay, who and how many should come in by your standards?

[luvbach1]

Steeeriiikke! You knocked down all the pins! Too many are oblivious of the multitudinous negative implications of the proposed "Guest worker" program; unfortunately, including the president. But you delineated them so well. But, alas, we are the choir, are we not?

[WOSG]

It is simple to avoid the problem of illegals, or for that matter legal immigrants, with questionable motives or actions:

Deportation on any but minor charges.

Thanks again to Lamar Smith, *my* Congressman, for helping to protect our homeland security and borders. Deporting felons automatically was his idea. The Liberals *hate* that kind of stuff.

[WOSG]

uh, the link's not working.

[Thumper1960]

Just because the illegal is already here does not negate the fact that the illegal is, indeed, illegal. The illegal should go back to his/her country of origin and apply for admittance to the US. The legal and programmatic route. We are a nation of laws. The basis for civil society is adherence to laws and rules enacted for good social order. Applicants for admission should be screened for suitability. Undesirables should be denied admission. This is simple logic.

[Zipporah]

Maybe I linked it incorrectly.. here is the url:

http://www.sqlife.org/evansarticle.htm

[Thumper1960]

Some of us are the choir. Others seem to be tone deaf.

[ableChair]

"Whoa, the guest worker program encourages the workers to GO HOME, with the setaside for the money for soc sec ... thus serving exactly what you think would be appropriate. Non-assimilators return to country of origin!! "

Ummm, they're here for three years. Doesn't matter what you call them. They must assimilate or destroy the culture they're in. Besides, we've already pointed out in this forum that faithfully "returning" to their "country of origin" is highly unlikely.

"Now, I postulated in another post that this would likely lead to 3 streams of migrants: The 'stayers' who try to get green cards; 'revolving door workers'; and *deportees*."

Okay.

This to me is beyond hype.. Get serious! Does hispanic TV "destroy your culture"? Whatabout Chinese restaurants? Or the ethnic neighborhoods in Chicago?

Bravo! You're catching on. Yes, if the rate at which this occurs is high enough. Again, you keep referring to the past. We're talking about rates hitherto unseen. So, cliches and propaganda lines used as red herrings won't work with me. Try sticking to the point. We're not talking about today or yesterday. We're talking about future policy. But in any case, it's funny you'd call this "hype"...taken from a favorite propaganda manual? The process of cultural change by mass and dramatic influxes of very different peoples is manifest even to a child; the proverbial elephant in the living room. But you don't see that. You really believe that has no impact at all on a culture? Who needs to get real, here?

"There is NOTHING in this Bush proposal that would come even close to the numbers of immigrants in the 1900 era. Any projections HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS PROPOSAL! So it is based on fearmongering IMHO."

A limitless spigot opened to allow anybody and his entire extended family a relatively high paying job in the United States, the wealthiest country in the world and to do so without fear of deportation. Nah, there's nothing in the Bush proposal to suggest uncontrolled migration as a result of this.

"A level of immigration no greater than we successfully absorbed before will destroy us? Hardly "true", more like a doomsday prediction that is contrary to our previous experience."

IMHO, your view is fundamentally nihilistic. The data and facts speak for themselves. see below.

"Look, I am for fixing the problems of illegal immigration. It's bad and we need to have the guts to enforce our laws. I am just against this specious, over-the-top chicken-little nonsense that the world will end because illegal alien workers that fix our roofs and mow our lawns are going to destroy America." Get real, please."

Cliches, cliches. I swear it sounds like you've been trained to use cliches. Fascinating. So, you're suggesting that an infinite rate of immigration is sustainable by any nation? Oh, that's right, you think the rate won't change. see below.

"Like where? And dont say the Romans. I know my Roman history, and that's bunk."

Hmmm, funny. I figured you'd say that. I'm not your teacher. Go read a history book. It is not my job to educate you, it is your job to know the facts when you enter a discussion. There are so many examples of it you could choke on it. It's plain as day in any entry-level University textbook. You're attempting to drop a red herring in so you don't have to explain your nihilism or lack of reason. But this doevetails nicely into my point about nihilists. It is evident to me that you are predisposed to conclude that illegal immigration is a great thing; almost certainly because of some personality bias. A nihilist ignores facts and reality, insists on having others educate them and ignores solid reason (like the definition of 'rate' or a 'derivative'). You folks are all the same. If you actually take the time to tear apart their arguments you only find that they're internally inconsistent babble, full of red herrings and founded on nihilism. I'm not sure what to tell you but I assure you propaganda put on this forum will be thrashed.

[WOSG]

Everything you say is consistent with what Bush said today.
He wants would-be immigrants to be obeying the laws.

My point about 'they are already here' is simply to refute the chicken-little sky-is-falling hyperbole. If large-scale illegal immigration were the death of our country, we'd be dead already.

Furthermore, Bush's intention is to cut illegal immigration, not increase it.

[Cold Heat]

McCain's proposal

Yeah, the statements made in the article do not match the Bush proposal.

No green cards in the Bush proposal.

BTW, the current law says the sanction for illegal entry is a three year probation.(minimum)

So, with that in mind, they all can apply for a green card in three years regardless.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

Does anyone have data on last amnesty of excess people
brought in legally by people who were granted amnesty?