IDF prepares for removal of 60 illegal West Bank outposts

The Jerusalem Post ^ | 6 January 2003 | MATTHEW GUTMAN

[anotherview]

Take a good look at the picture. This isn't a massive "transfer" of Jews as some here would say. It's removing Jewish squatters from illegally siezed public lands. You can't build an "outpost" on American government land without permission, can you? The same applies to Israel.

I don't think Prime Minister Sharon is anti-settler. I do think he has a responsibility to uphold the law. The Yesha Council cannot be a law unto itself.

I expect to be roundly flamed for supporting the government on this by the ideologically minded on here.

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[anotherview]

Ping because y'all have pro-Israel ping lists, not because I expect any of you to agree with my position in my comment #1.

[APRPEH]

the law of Yesha is the military. it is either israel or territory but cannot be both. those living in yesha either have govt benefits or they do not. those living in yesha either have rights as citizens of israel or do not. the same would apply to the arabs. what arab village or town is authorized by israel? they should all be removed.

[SJackson]

Particularly as regards Migron, but other settlements as well, what if the Court rules they're legal? Or follow the US advice?

Amb. Kurtzer Warns Israeli Courts: Don't Let Law Prevent Uprooting Migron

If illegality is the issue, does illegal Arab construction get addressed, particularly in East Jerusalem?

Unfortunately transfer ("ethnic cleansing" in the Arab view) is going to be necessary to secure borders, but there's no point in putting a pretty face on it.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[richardtavor]

One disagreement that I have is that they are not 'Ilegal' settlements, but just 'unauthorized.' The land rightfully belongs to the people of Israel. The problem with the semantics above is that it implies ownership to others: If this settlement is removed, then you can bet a Palestinian one will pop up--it is always about demographics--that is why they are called territories. The proper procedure would be to try to petition through the state of Israel, but again, all of the territories are disputed (both in Israel and by the rest of the world.) The Palestinian plan is to conquer Israel by out- populating the Jews--therefore, these tiny little "shards" of land are incredibly important. Sharon is trying to cut the best deal he can to stave off the Palestinian Plan of maximum birthing....

[conserv13]

I agree with you. Extreme settlers are risking the lives of average Israelis and it is wrong. The most indefensible outposts and settlements need to go.

[Alouette]

What about illegal Arab settlements inside Israel "proper"?

[anotherview]

What about illegal Arab settlements inside Israel "proper"?

Same thing. Tear them down.

[anotherview]

If illegality is the issue, does illegal Arab construction get addressed, particularly in East Jerusalem?

Same thing. Tear it all down. The law should be applied equally.

Unfortunately transfer ("ethnic cleansing" in the Arab view) is going to be necessary to secure borders, but there's no point in putting a pretty face on it.

That depends on how you define transfer. 3.5 million Arabs or a few thousand Jews at most? The latter is practical, the former is not.

[APRPEH]

to clarify

that is, the arab villages and towns, as unauthorized should also be torn down if the outposts must go...

[APRPEH]

few thousand?

add in jerusalem suburbs and the pop. approaches 300,000

[anotherview]

You completely misunderstand me. The few thousand I refer to would be those who would have to move based on unilateral withdrawal plans discussed by Prime Minister Sharon and Deputy Prime Minister Olmert. There is no way I would support this or any other government which would withdraw from parts of Jerusalem or return to 1967 borders.

Actually, without Jerusalem proper the current population figure for Yesh is 236,000 amnd including annexed territoty in Jerusalem and Golan it's almost 400,000. Nobody in Israel is proposing removing that number of people. Even Yossi Beilin's Geneva Insanity would leave about 70% of the "settlers" in place, and I certainly do not support that.

[SJackson]

That depends on how you define transfer. 3.5 million Arabs or a few thousand Jews at most? The latter is practical, the former is not.

It's not a matter of definitions, it's the same thing. You're right about the practicality issue, but the real barrier is world opinion. No one cares if a few hundred, or thousand, or tens of thousands of Jews get transfered.

A few winters ago Mayor Daley attempted to "transfer" a few homeless people out of their cardboard boxes and into shelters. You should have heard the outrage.

The same goes for tearing down illegal Arab construction, it won't happen. The IDF can't even tear down illegal construction in defensive zones without howls of protest.

[APRPEH]

i would never add the pop of jerusalem (new or old) or the golan in the set of figures we are talking about. these are off the table despite what washington thinks. your statement is problematic:
{That depends on how you define transfer. 3.5 million Arabs or a few thousand Jews at most? The latter is practical, the former is not.}

jews whether in legal or non-authorized residences are fair game for transfer where arabian villages or towns, clearly unauthorized are not. there seems to be agreement here that illegal arab constructions should be brought down. but as has been pointed out, the world reaction would be hostile. so if legitimate israeli legal opinions based upon normal legal precedent such as permits for construction can only be implemented if you destroy or transfer jews but not arabians, does it matter what israel does? not in MHO.

[lobo59]

......"they are not 'Ilegal' settlements, but just 'unauthorized.' The land rightfully belongs to the people of Israel."

Agree to that. They should become authorized and the number of them greatly expanded. Follow the pattern of our American homestead act and settle and reclaim the land for the Jews. Survey and register the plots and only allow Jewish citizens to homestead. Remove and destroy the illegal Arab squatter sites and refuse registration for them. They currently have no legal written titles, though they are trying to write and create documents in the last few years to cover what is known to be the weakest link in any claim the arabs may make. However all of their recently created papers are as fraudulent as all of the other pali propaganda. Being fraudulent it can not be allowed to stand, it must be exposed and destroyed.

[Salem]

"I expect to be roundly flamed for supporting the government on this by the ideologically minded on here."

No, I wouldn't expect any "flames" by the people who are affiliated with issues surrounding the Nation of Israel around here. It wouldn't do any good, and they're by and large professionals. "Flaming" you implies their positions, or mine, are somehow weak, whimsical, or unfounded.

I'll tell you though, and pardon me if I wax spiritual for a moment, what's happening with the settlers isn't going to stop now, just like it hasn't stopped since Oslo, or any of the other nonsense "peace" initiatives over the last few decades. Sharon, or Bush/Powell and the US, or Arafat can posture and threaten and play their diplomatic games impelled by their various motives and cultural/economic/political angles all they want, but, well, it isn't going to stop.

The Jews, as a people and culture, ever since 70 AD have held on to the idea of returning to The Land, and indeed, G-d in His word has promised it. But driving that, through all those centuries has been that passion that is borne of having lost something of great value, something few would really understand unless they have experienced the same thing.

But, now the Jews have it back. And it is the Yesha settlers who, after almost sixty years back in The Land, are still modeling that passion for "The Land," the "dream," the "Promise." Whatever the Israeli Supreme Court says, or politicians looking at the short term, it isn't going to go away. America herself has a history of agitation against wrong rulings of our Supreme Court. Many have been overturned.

I'm behind the settlers, one hundred percent. If one "settlement" is uprooted from ground that is rightfully the Jews, two more will just pop up somewhere else. Because the passion isn't going to die.

Unfortunately, it's going to take more treachery on the part of the Arabs, the leftist EU, and elements hostile towards Jewish sovereignty in the US government, when the violence against Israel flares again, for the rest of the Jews who immigrated to Israel over the last six decades—because G-d is gracious and He gave it back—to fan that flagging passion again, and have that plain Israeli patriotism more clearly reflected in their cultural institutions.

There's more than one Jew around here who knows what I'm talking about. It goes a whole lot deeper than "ideology."

"...but the just shall live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4)

Especially on the Hills of Samaria.

If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me. ~
    
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)
Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~

[FreeReporting]

If your neighbour started building a house on public land in the USA wouldn't you consider the police justified in demolishing it? Why should it be different in Israel?

[richardtavor]

Best reply that I have seen. I only hope that Sharon and the Government don't try to give away the land that G-d gave the Jews--things don't work out well for the Jews when they reject G-d's blessings....I strongly suspect that some major event will strongly derail the Road Map, and that Jerusalem will surely become a cup of poison to the rest of the world.